Transcript

Lisa

Welcome to her career studio. My name is Lisa Virtue, your international career coach and podcast host. This podcast was developed to help women thrive at work so that they can thrive in life. We explore the intersection between work and our personal lives, and how we can make sure that we don't take work home with us every night. One of the first ways to thrive at work is to have the right aligned job. So in the job search, we talk about how to interview confidently, how to show up, what are the tips and best practices around a job search? In this episode, I had the privilege over a YouTube live series to have a great conversation with Natalie Venturi out of Hollywood. She's been working in the entertainment biz for decades and is also an executive coach, working with her clients to help them unlock their full potential by building their confidence in how they communicate. So really hope you enjoy this episode as I did, and learn how to stop hiding and show up with a confident presence. Enjoy! 4s I am going to now have Natalie Venturi, my guest, introduce herself and talk about how she got into this space. Thank you so much for being here, Natalie. I can't wait to hear all of the gems you're going to share with us. So why don't you just start off by telling us how you got into this work and what drives you. 1s

Natalie

Thank you, Lisa. And I think in particularly when we're talking about presence, um, to be able to I really my purpose is to be of service to everyone who's listening and to be able to offer them something that will hopefully make a difference in how they show up. And so I am an executive coach and also a performance coach. It could be referred to as that. And I help people get to where they want to go. Kind of sums it up and I have a long career, different careers. I was a meeting planning planner for many years and also have worked in technology and business operations and. It just. And so how I got to being a coach. Um, you could probably say I always coached even as a child. So that's one thing that what I talk about is when you're looking at your career and what you're doing in your world, it's I always think it's really important to go back and see how do you what comes naturally to you and like, is there a golden thread through what you do? So when I look back at my career, um, all my career as I was a business major in college, and the golden thread has been to create beautiful and meaningful experiences and no matter what I'm doing. So. Whether it was meeting planning, which I got into meeting planning after college because I realized when I was 12 years old, I actually planned my mother's 50th birthday party surprise. So I was always doing events and I was always planning and organizing. So kind of my career went in that way. And even in business operations when I worked in business operations, I do a lot of organization. And another thing is I get you to where you want to go. So that's also another thread. So it kind of parlayed as a coach. It's a perfect, you could say, a tagline for lack of a better phrase. But the way I actually, um, and then I pursued an acting career. Now that was the scariest thing to me. But when I was doing some meeting planning, I had a very influential person in my life who said, you need to pursue a theater career. Now. That was a secret of mine that I never told anyone. And as a child I would think, you know, I love performing. I was very performative as a child, told to be seen and not heard. 1s And I'm sure many people are. And I had a very big energy. So it was always shrinking to, you know, feel. 2s And then you tie that with a bunch of other things that happened, you know, through childhood and experiences and traumas and things like that. So when I took my first acting class, I was living in Chicago, and I was just like tipping my toe into it. And I had a really great experience with a teacher who said, you have to be very careful with your talent. She told me where to go study in Chicago. I did that, but as I and so obviously I was still working a regular job, but I never felt legitimate as an actor. And so I was very confident in my work no matter what work I was doing. But I didn't have high self-esteem. So I think people talk about confidence and people can be perceived as being confident, but self-esteem is something different. So I think it's really important, um, to how can you build your self-esteem and and your self-assurance? I think confidence comes from self-assurance. So when we go back to this, um, the art of presence and, um, people's, you know, they want I have clients who come and say they there's a job that is a they may be middle management and they have a job where they want it. That's an executive considered an executive. So. 1s What I. And so what I did. So let me back up. So then as an actor I started studying acting and I moved to California, and I still never felt legitimate as an actor. I was always I was not enough. I was too fat. I didn't look right. Um, I just I just couldn't wrap my head around. I just didn't feel like legitimate. So I through a series of events and listening to my intuition, I found a teacher that I studied with and the first class that I went to, I audited his class and he said, if you want to be an actor, you just have to commit and I'll teach you how to be a professional actor. And I was like, well, I know how to commit. Which when I use that word commit, I'm going to bring go, come back to that because it's about virtues. So I was like, I know how to commit. And so I committed. I studied with him and he basically said I being an actor as being a professional human being, we, we, we were in his on a stage in his class. And when I would, I did a monologue and what would happen? He said, why have you been hiding? You hide, you have this energy, who you are, how you show up. You're hiding. Why are you hiding? So that began the journey of getting comfortable with who I was and what I was. And I think this translates to anyone who is looking to one make a living, make a difference in the world, but do it. That's in alignment with who and what they are. So, 2s uh, from that teacher I studied with another teacher named Sam Christiansen, who used to he was the casting director on Mash, the television show. And I get emotional when I think of Sam. He was just a beautiful, beautiful human being who taught actors that how they were created is exactly perfect. And so when I studied with Sam, we worked on monologues. And Sam working with Sam is what really taught me how to be comfortable in my skin, to claim exactly what I am and who I am, and make no apologies for it and lean into it. So through that work, it was it was over time and I didn't realize it was such a gradual progression. But that's what made me very, very comfortable in front of getting up in front of doing anything. So during that time I had a, an acquaintance, I actually had a coaching practice where I formalized it and what I, um, a friend, an acquaintance approached me and she was a sales, um, manager, and she needed to do a presentation she had done. They made everybody do a presentation in front of the board. 1s And everyone bombed and and they were saying, you can do it again. But their jobs really depended on it. So they were really high stakes. She approached me and she said, would you help me with my presentation? I said, absolutely. So I worked on her presentation as I worked at would work on a script or telling a story. And, you know, in career coaching, when you know, you prepare your answers, it's all about you. How do you tell the story? So I worked with her and helped her rearrange and her slides and how we could tell this story and how she could show up as the presenter. And when she reported back to me, she she said she blew them out of the water. They all leaned in and it was just a really exciting. And she kept her job and. Yeah. 1s And so it was really it was. And so what I realized was everything I had learned as an actor I could use in my coaching. And so that's how I started using, um, what I learned as an actor, um, in coaching executives and coaching anybody really, because people approach me for executive coaching, but then it really becomes life coaching or business coaching and things. So that's a long winded story of if you're in a job interview, you only keep it to 90s.

But I love it.

 Lisa

Oh, it's so different when you're on YouTube live I get it.

 NATALIE

Oh yeah. It's like oh so no, that's and that's how I came. And so and I just and so I really and and what it's morphed into is I do acting exercises with non-actors. And that's been an incredible, incredible experience of watching people transform. We've done it in groups on, you know, on zoom and other people are watching. And it's very simple exercises. But what it's requiring is them getting in touch with their feelings, their emotions, and how they control their voice and their physicality. It is transformative and oh, it's so exciting.

 LISA

Oh, I love that. We'll get into all those tips really soon. So two things you said resonated with me. One is that someone noticed you were hiding, right? And that's the theme today, especially for women, where we have been, like you mentioned, when you're a child, maybe it's how you were raised be seen but not heard, or you need to be a nice girl or those things that stick with us. And maybe it's even a gender bias that's going on in the boardroom. It could be all sorts of things that come up that create a meekness or a reservation of women.. So I love that someone noticed that and helped you unleash your power and your presence. I'd like for us to get into that more as we talk today, especially around women and how they can show up. And then the other thing is being an actor is being a professional human. I think that's so interesting. Would you say when people are acting out a different character versus telling their own personal story, do you see a difference there? Is it easier for people to lean in and pretend they're someone else than it is to be authentically themselves?

NATALIE

Yes and no. It can be as an actor when you're reading, uh, telling a story or saying a monologue. It's about telling the truth. So people think actors are, oh, you're lying. An actor tells the truth in in a scene. So. Except I'm telling. I'm being portraying someone else. So. But you're really looking at me, the actor. So in a job interview, you're being yourself with the. And then it's. Are they going to reject me? I mean, the fear comes up. I'm going. Are they going to like me or am I saying the right thing? Am I doing the right thing? So there's all that amygdala, all the survival brain is going on when you're in the interview as an actor, there's also that going on. But the actor has learned when they're in front of people, you get used to being in front of people. You do have stage fright, you get nervous, you get. But when you focus on the other person, like, I'm focusing on you, it's not about me. So. It's the same as a job interview. My amygdala is going off. Are they going to like me? Am I going to say the right thing? But if I go into looking at you and I'm focusing on you and I'm listening to what you're saying, then I'm in relationship with you. And when we feel an actor and we feel moved by an actor, it's because they're in relationship. They're the focus is off of them. Did that answer the question?

LISA

Yeah, that was a great way to put it. Just like the act of charisma, right. What is charisma? It's all about when that person shows interest in you and how they connect with their with someone else. And people that we know that have the most charisma are always making us feel like we're the only one in the room.

 NATALIE

And and to do that authentically because a really great I think quality of is curiosity. So I'm curious like well what, what you know if you're looking in a job interview or you're like curious, well what is this job about. What is this company about. You know, what are you what do you want from this job? Or, you know, what do you want from the person who's going to be in this job? Stay curious. And so that's putting the focus on and and on the other like the other person. So it's staying in relationship even when you go to a cocktail party or you know, they're cocktail parties anymore. I don't know. But like all right, a networking let's say networking. So you go to a networking and it's. It's to stay curious. When we stay curious. We're asking questions to other people and, you know, not like you're under the spotlight or in the interrogation room, but curious, like what makes you tick.

LISA

Mhm. Yeah. That's so important in the job search. Because when a hiring manager feels like you're not very interested in the job, then they're going to move on to the person that is the most interested in passionate and engaged.

 NATALIE

Yeah absolutely. And I think people talk about authenticity. And what does that look like. What does that mean? I think authenticity comes from really knowing yourself and being comfortable with yourself. And if there's like one thing that Sam taught, which I thought was really brilliant, if you have a quirk, name it. Yeah. And lean into it. It's like, this is, you know who I am and that that causes that, that facilitates engagement and also, um, connection in like we can talk about it like, yes, I know that I have to, you know, on those spreadsheets. I need to make sure we balance this down to the penny. I know we talk in hundreds of thousands of dollars, but to me, I know I'll get there. I'm sorry, but I gotta balance it to the penny.

 LISA

You know, that is hilarious. My husband is that way. He's in finance, and I always tease him. I'm like, yeah, if it's off by. Yeah, you know, it's not good enough.

 NATALIE

That's so true. So you know and then it's but that's that's a virtue of, you know, commitment to precision. You know, it's really important to be precise. And in some situations that's really helpful. So yeah

 LISA

I love that. Okay. Let's get into some of your recommendations. Maybe um, if you want to practice anything I'm not sure what you have prepared for us today, but anything that you want to share with the audience on how they can start practicing and feel prepared in that self-esteem, build that self-esteem and confidence.

 NATALIE

So, when we talk, when I talk about presence, it's really energy. Everything is energy. Would you agree with that? Like no matter what it is, everything is energy. So and it's about your voice. There's a lot of talk, no pun intended, about women's voices.. And what I've observed, um, as an actor watching actors rehearse and also as women who are in the workforce and who are looking for jobs in as my clients. Being with a voice. And I have you come down from your lower, um, lower belly to really resonate. Have a, um. People will get critical if you say a lower register, but I call it coming from your power center. That's your creative force. So when you connect to that, it is connecting to your own creative force and your life force. Really, what happens when women start? Or I'm going to use women for an example, or anybody really starts talking up here and you hear and they're all up in their nasal and they don't. There's nothing coming from down below in their body. So when I start working with them and we can do very simple exercises, and what happens is because women, many, many women are not safe, do not feel safe in their bodies, so they are not in their body. So there are through one I call it, go to the store and get some carrots and and it's just a phrase. It can be any phrase. And so anybody can take any phrase and you say that phrase. And you tie an emotion to it, or an action to that and that. And so what I do with the client is, and especially when we do this in a group, is I will have you sometimes it depends on the person. Sometimes they're moving around. But I have them get in their body. And so when you are speaking, it's to be in your body and that grounds you. And that helps you stay connected. Because when you're up here, like, if I'm just talking up here and I'm moving around and, and I'm not really connecting and, and I'm not in my body, I don't really know. It's all in my head and I'm just talking and I don't know what I'm talking about. And then I might talk faster. And when we get nervous, our voices even go higher.

 LISA

Even just that demonstration, you can tell, like when you're up here, it doesn't feel authentic. It feels like, almost like you're talking to a baby trying to soothe them or something. Right and right instead of with intention, like you're mentioning.

 NATALIE

And so then we just settle in to my body and I'm focusing on my lower, um, I'll say my abdomen, one of your lower chakras. And then you just take a breath and then you start talking, and then it's much more measured. It can be. It feels more. There's more gravitas to it, and people tend to listen when you are really in your body. That's how I feel. That's been my experience and it just gives things. It gives everything more weight. And it also I mean I just came to me is I think it helps people relax. Versus when I'm talking we're like you know if you have ever been around a horse to horses, I don't know if the horse of

 LISA

Of course, I'm in Oregon.

 NATALIE

Yeah. So horses if you're around a horse, a horse is always picking up what's going on. And I think as humans we do that. But don't we don't realize we're doing it on some level. So I when I was in a, in the barn one time with a horse and I had a fear and the person I was with said, the horse is picking up your fear, doesn't know what you're afraid of it, but they're going, what's going on? Like, oh my God, there's something in here that we've got to be afraid of. So when somebody's talking like this and you're like, what's going on? I mean, I'm just wondering, I that's I want to know. Check that out. In the future when I'm hearing someone talk really high and they're really.

 LISA

Yeah. So that's a that's a really interesting observation. I have had some women maybe I'm meeting them for the first time and they talk. Yeah. In their more head voice and also nonstop, you know when women don't pause and I'm saying women. But I've also experienced it with men. When someone's doing that, you wonder as the other person in the conversation, are they hearing me? Do they care what I have to say? Because there's no room to really say much or connect with them. And then you wonder how much they're actually observing the space. And sometimes those people are actually hyper observant because later they'll share with me what they were observing. But it just is so off putting, isn't it? Because as the other person supposedly in the conversation, you're wondering, are you? Do you care if I say anything in this moment?

 NATALIE

Well, I also think that's called maybe reading the Room. And so and then it's the art of listening.. And, and but I think that's a really great observation. Yes. Hyper awareness. Mhm. So and I because I actually know somebody who has that quality of talking very fast and keeps going and going and going, and they are very hyper aware of what's happening. It's very interesting. That's a great observation.

 LISA

Yeah. Very interesting. And so that would be a quirk. Right. So leaning in. Yes. Acknowledging the elephant in the room, letting someone know, hey, when I'm meeting someone for the first time, I might overtake the conversation. I will try to check myself, but feel free to jump in at any moment. I will not be offended if you interrupt me. Right. Those kinds of quirks.

 NATALIE

Exactly. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I love that. And then another is terms of physicality. One of the things, particularly when you're doing these kind of interviews, you know, if you're on an interview in a zoom. How? Um, we were talking earlier about Amy Cuddy's power pose. You know, like, um, so if anybody hasn't read her book, it's called presence. It's really, really good. I was telling Lisa that I just picked up a copy. I'd never read it, and I started reading it. It was really, really good. So she talks about a power pose, which actually increases testosterone and feelings of of, um, your own personal power when you're in a, particularly in these, uh, kind of interviews on zoom. Um, 2s I advise sitting in a chair that doesn't have arms because and to sit forward in the chair like you're in a tennis match because you're like, you're just ready to you're engaged and you're you're physically sitting in a position for engagement versus. So Lisa, I'm really happy to be here today. I think it's really exciting this. I've never done a YouTube live versus I'm sitting on the edge of my seat. And my it just it changes my energy. I feel more engaged with you.. Could you feel that difference?

LISA

Oh yes. I'm glad you did not do the first one today.

NATALIE

And so what happens when we sit with arms on the chair. We tend to put our arms on the chair and we're like okay. Um. Um, and then also, you know, just the camera of doing testing, make sure you have good lighting and, um, so that helps. So back to. So then the energy, um, my first acting teacher was Tom Todorov. And he talked about something that really, deeply resonates with me is that my job is to change the molecules in the room. And each one of us, we bring our energy into any situation we're in. So I think it's very important before we go into any type of an interview, any type of thing that is of maybe a high stakes for us or feels. Is to what is my intention? What is my intention of being here at the end of this? How do I want to feel? How do I want my people I'm with to feel? What do I want them to take away from it? That's as important for a presentation, I believe, as it is for an interview or for an audition. It's to know what my intention is and how I want to feel afterwards. So when talking about changing the molecules in the room, how I show up, I have the power to change the molecules in the room so that you feel something. There's a spark because I'm engaged. I'm excited. Tell me about yourself. Tell me about this job. Well, let me tell you about a time when I did bla bla bla bla bla. You know.

 LISA

Oh, it's so true. People want to work with people that are eager to do the work and eager to connect with their coworkers and people that they like.

 NATALIE

And I would like to also talk about introverts, extroverts and ambivalence in terms of like, I don't believe in making or telling extra, excuse me, introverts, that they need to be like, hey, I'm really excited to be, oh, like, be not be what you are not. But there are ways when you're comfortable with who you are and and no, I'm an introvert and this is what I bring to the party and be confident and self-assured in that. I think it makes a huge impact because you're being authentic to your true nature. So this is not about introverts have to put on the, you know, Tommy Tune show, right?

 LISA

Yeah. No, I know, so I actually work with a lot of my clients identify as introverts or ambiverts. And there are some of the best interviewers because they can bring that ground ness to the conversation. And a lot of times and, you know, with when people are veering on that introvert spectrum, typically they think a lot before they speak. And so you feel the authenticity come through as long as they are being true to them, their own nature.  

  NATALIE

Yeah, I love that. Yeah. So, um, and you're obviously just the physicality. So I think, um, when we talk about physicality, uh, sometimes in the work that I do. People have no emotion when they're talking. So it depends on the person. But if there is to do something physical to help them get in their body and to get comfortable and to actually have more energy. So that's another thing that I, you can do some exercises of, even if you do jumping jacks or do push ups against a wall, you know, and just dance like sometimes it's like, I love it. I, I have some, um, one client who doesn't do a lot of is very, um, like, you know, um, I don't want to say I don't want to say stiff is not very animated. I'll say, and wants to be more animated. So, you know, it's just dance like let's. And we dance together because it frees up and it moves energy. So, um, if you're feeling stuck. Yeah. You can.

 LISA

I love that I've got a six year old at my house that loves a dance party. So if anyone needs to practice!

 NATALIE

That's great.

 LISA

So. How about facial expressions and what we're doing with our eyes? I have these eyebrows that like to dance. Do you have any tips or recommendations for? Um, yeah. Facial exercises, anything like that?

 NATALIE

Well, I think the key is, uh, recording yourself going in, you know, on zoom. Just record yourself, practice, talk, see what happens with your face. And I highly recommend uh, so I don't have any facial exercises in particular to do. Um just practice it. Just practice and you know like and I, I, I'm not a believer in when you're speaking you have to do you'll notice a lot of politicians do this. You know, they don't point because they've been coached to do this. You know. You know, we don't point at anybody when we're doing this. And so things can get very kind of jilted. You know, they're like robotic. And I just I'm not a fan of that. I just don't, you know, like, oh, you gesture here or oh, you it just doesn't feel natural to me personally. I think if you have an impulse to do something like I talk with my hands, um, so I can talk up here. I'm looking at myself over here because I. Or I can keep them down here and do my best not to move them. But it's also. Why am I talking with my hands? So, uh. So I'm talking with my hand. I'm dissipating the energy right now. Okay. So now. I want you to tell me if you can tell the difference. If I just. I'm going to really center in my body. Mhm. And so when you don't really move your body. You can actually use your voice and it really it gets a little uncomfortable sometimes not moving anything when you're talking. So and I can tell you what's happening to me right now is I feel like there's my eye, my eyes are going like this. Yeah. And if I can tell you a little exercise I did with somebody we were doing go to the store and get some carrots. And I was having her do this in different ways. And she kept moving like, and I'd say no in this because some people need to move, but some people when they move too much. So we just did this over and over to where she wasn't there wasn't she wasn't blinking. I didn't want one movement except her mouth moving. Her whole body started sweating.

 LISA

 Mhm. Yeah, I bet

 NATALIE

Because it was so unnerving to not let that energy dissipate. And there's something I would also offer this to people who are watching this. It's really. Here's an exercise you can do, which is which ties to this. Of not moving your body and channeling your voice. Think about a time when you were on top of the world. I mean, nobody could stop you from doing anything you knew. This is why I'm here. I can die now. I have fulfilled my purpose. I am know exactly why I'm here. You cannot. You can say anything to me. It wouldn't make a difference because I am so solid in who I am. So and I have people think about that experience. And then we do some work with that, with the line, with saying a line. Then I have you go to a different space that is not as positive. You can feel the difference in your body. It does not feel as great. What this person did, who was dissipating and sweating and all that she was in in an interview, and the man that was interviewing her, it was not a zoom call. And he's doing this and and he said, so tell me about your leadership style. And she thought of that moment where she was on top of the world. She took a breath and she started speaking. And he did this.  She knew it in the moment. She was like, it felt. So that is something I would say to practice so that when you and people have talked about when interviews, don't be afraid of the pause. So take a moment, go to that place and speak.

 LISA

 I love that I have definitely felt that from people and seen that from people. Absolutely. And whenever I'm working with clients on interview prep, having them just do the tell me about yourself unencumbered like this is not an interview, just like tell me. And then talking about what lights them up, such a shift away from that professional XYZ. Here's my tasks, here's what I do to oh yeah, how did I fall in love with this work? Where did I find that passion? It's such a different conversation, isn't it?

 NATALIE

Yes.

 LISA

 Yeah. Pretending you're out for drinks with friends. Not in an interview where you're sweating, right?

 NATALIE

And you're in a conversation and, um, with somebody that's not out to get you. Right, which is which is, again, that amygdala that's trying to keep us safe.

 LISA

Um, so, yeah, there's so much weight in interviews because it's our livelihood and it's such a stressful time when we're in a career shift or change or opportunity to advance, and we want to prove ourselves.

 NATALIE

It's a very, very, very vulnerable, um, experience to go through. And I think it's really important to acknowledge that, um, when anyone is going through that, it's you feel so vulnerable. One is if you have financial pressure on top of just do they like me, but there's so much pressure that can that is on a candidate. And I have such compassion and empathy for that. Um, yeah. Be kind to yourself.

 LISA

Right and wondering if they're answering the question in the right way. Correct. Am I giving them the answer they're looking for right instead of right? Okay. How can I turn this into something that I feel confident and comfortable sharing that is relevant and it's authentically me? Versus did I give them the right answer.

NATALIE

Right. Mhm. No pun intended. Correct.

LISA

Yes. That's amazing. Um, so, like anything, when we're doing self-improvement or working on our, our just us, right? It's all about us. And how can we improve personally? Self-awareness is the first key thing, isn't it?

 NATALIE

Absolutely. Especially I'm just thinking of this, um, topic of presence and then hiding in plain sight. It's it is all about knowing yourself. And that comes with, you know, the emotional intelligence. So when you know yourself, you know when to listen and when to speak up. And then how do you speak up? So how are you showing up?  Um,  do you turn your camera on in meetings? All meetings? Um, that's something to really look at if you when you're already in a job. Are you speaking just to speak, or are you speaking with something to say? Because I think many people have been in meetings where there are people that are just going to. I've got to show myself that I'm here. I'm here. Mhm. So that's and it's just knowing yourself and knowing when to speak. And what is it you really want to say. Mhm. And then who is your audience. So and it's all about. And I just am a huge proponent of learning about yourself. And I think that's the discovery of and what you bring and who and are you doing the work you really want to be doing. And. Looking at what work do you really want to be doing? What is your. You know? Are you there? Do you want to make a difference in the world, or do you just, you know, how much money do you need? Is this a job just to get you to the next step? I think it's just knowing where you are and what you want to get and where you want to go. Mhm.

 LISA

Yeah. So working with someone who is a personal advocate or mentor or a coach, like the work we do and having someone hold that space for you and give and give you that accountability framework and feedback. Right. I have so many people that I talk to that well, I think maybe I need a coach because, you know, my family is so great and they're so supportive, but I don't feel like I'm getting authentic feedback from them.

 NATALIE

Right, exactly. Mhm.

 LISA

Yeah. So getting that feedback, having someone hold that space and practicing I'm with you. You know my athletic background and coaching is this, this replay is so important to be able to record yourself. Watch the watch the replay see what you can adapt and change. And that's that first awareness piece. I think a lot of people, even in this state of everything being online, a lot of people are still not doing that. They're not watching it back or recording and watching it back, watching themselves back. Yeah, they're in all of these virtual meetings, but there's no record button or going back and actually taking the time to do that work and watching themselves.

 NATALIE

It's not easy to watch yourself. It's very true. Very, very and acknowledge that it's not easy to watch yourself. And I think I think having a coach is really important. Um, and that's not a sales pitch. That is, I use coaches. I think what they provide is an opportunity for growth. And just to be able to help you with your. Help you again, help you get to where you want to go and give you candid feedback. In a very kind and encouraging way. So yeah.

 LISA

And very unbiased. Right? They don't have an agenda or correct push you in one way or the other.

NATALIE

Absolutely. Yeah. And that's really I think also, even when you surround yourself with your peers and your people is. Who has who has agendas for you. Mhm. Are there hidden agendas and things. Yeah. Right. Yep. It's like bye bye. Right.

LISA

Exactly.

 NATALIE

So. And your last name is Virtue. And so if you I would love to just bring something up that I do, I do with all my clients is there's a, I really believe, um, virtues help us connect with each other. And when we speak in the language of virtues and acknowledging, um, the virtues we see in others. So there's an app that I have my clients get. It's, um, virtues. Virtues. I can't remember what it's called. It's terrible. I'm going to have to look this up. Yeah. And so it is, um, it's actually called virtues cards. Oh. So it's it's a wonderful tool that you identify your core virtues. Um. Like one of mine is enthusiasm and I just am naturally enthusiastic. And so I kind of was born with that quality. So I think when we can talk in the language of virtues, and I think when you're telling your stories and you're talking about yourself, it's really helpful to speak about yourself in the language of virtues of what you bring. Commitment. Integrity. Honesty.  Um, I love that excellence, a commitment to excellence. So that's a great app. And there's it's on the front and the back of each card and, and I just, I love, um, working with those. And you can do a virtue's pick every day and what you want to focus on. But I think that may be very helpful for people to work with as they're how they're going to show up.

 LISA

 I love that. So grounding in our bodies and also in our values.

 NATALIE

 Um, yes, I would say and virtues because values are not always virtues.

 LISA

 Nice clarification.

 NATALIE

Yeah, there's a difference between values and virtues. I love that values are something you hold important to you. Um, virtues are what you are as a as your character. Um,

 LISA

Great. I love that the tip I'll. I think I've found it. I'll definitely look into that. Amazing. Well, we're coming to the end of our session today.

 NATALIE

Thank you so much. Thank you. Appreciate Natalie and Lisa to be able to share. And I hope whatever I offered was helpful.

 LISA

 Absolutely. I know it's helping me.

 NATALIE

It was a pleasure.

 LISA

Yes, pleasure to be with you as well. And thank you so much for your time. It's so precious and so thank you. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. And we will see everybody on LinkedIn and on our websites.