Lisa Virtue

Bonnie, welcome. Thank you so much for being here, one career mama to another. I do not have as many children as you, but I definitely appreciate anything about mom's transitioning careers or from their day job to their night job and their night job to their day job. It's so much, isn't it, that we all are doing all day long? So I really appreciate your time being here.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, of course.

Lisa Virtue

Why don't you just tell us a little bit about your own personal journey when it comes to your career and how you've gotten to where you are today?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Oh, yeah. I have a fun story. You guys are going to like this. So welcome to everyone. I'm Bonnie Wiscombe. Thanks for having me, Lisa. I actually started off planning to go to Pa school. I graduated right before my husband and I got married.

And then I went in to do all my prereqs for my master's degree, did the work experience. I needed all the things. But we knew we wanted a large family, so I went ahead and started having babies and thought, totally gonna be a working mom. It's gonna be fine. I thought, I'll make this work. I'm gonna probably do a lot of part time, and then my kids get to kindergarten, and I'll go full time. Whatever. And then I went all the way through the PA school interview, and I walked out of that interview, and it was like a lightning bolt hit me and was like, you're not gonna do this right now.

It was definitely some heavenly intervention. And I honestly, at the time, was a little bit crushed. I was like, well, I could have used this news a few years ago.

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

Never the right time. It always feels like in the moment, doesn't it?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Totally.

Totally. But at the same time, I will say there was some peace there, like, okay, okay, I'm gonna be a mom for a little while, and that's okay, too. And so I did that for probably about eight years. I was. I was primarily a stay at home mom. And then we kept having kids. At that point, I had about six. And I thought, you know what? This full time mom gig is harder than I thought, and my brain needs something.

So I started some side hustles. I started a few. I started a blog. A couple years later, I started a podcast. So just a few things to keep my mind sharp, help me make an impact in the world, and do something that really felt like I was using my skills in my education. And, um, little by little, my. My businesses have grown as my kids have. And now that the youngest one is here, and not a baby anymore.

It feels time to be that. That career phase, right? So I'm amping up my business and really stepping into that. But it's been such an interesting journey because I had all these plans, right, as we usually do, and. And being a working mom is. Is so different for every person. And so I feel like, for me, the predominant storyline has been just listen, just watch, pay attention. There's gonna be. There's gonna be signs that tell you what to do and what's right for you right now.

You might not know what it is. You might not always love the change that's coming at you, but you will settle into it, and then you will build a life that you love in that phase, if that makes sense.

Yeah, for sure.

Lisa Virtue

So how many children do you have total?

Bonnie Wiscombe

So we have ten. My oldest is 18 now, and my youngest is three, although I forgot how naughty three year olds are. So she still requires constant supervision. But when I'm working, we either have childcare or one of my older kids, they're all very, very helpful, too. So, yeah, very busy household. So, like I said, it's been many years trying to balance all that and figure out where my career is coming in and what that's gonna look like.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, I bet that three year old has so many little watchers, right?

Bonnie Wiscombe

She does. But sometimes they just assume she's there playing somewhere safe and she's getting it, making a mess somewhere. I'm like, okay, we all gotta work on. Yes. The glue stays out of her hands as three year olds want to do, you know?

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, I was one of those kind of, like, nannies of the one of five. And the three youngers were seven years to ten years my junior. So I was the, like, living nanny. But it's definitely true. Like, you, even with the siblings, they don't ever replace the moms and dads completely.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Nope, that's true.

Lisa Virtue

Yep. You still have a lot on your plate. So ten children, you were, it sounds, like, pretty ambitious before you even started having children, and you really valued your education and doing that secular work. And so tell me a little bit more about that journey of, like, mentally. I know you were talking about how, you know, divine intervention or whatever it is that happens to us, whatever people are that are listening, whatever their belief system is, the universe, something is intervening and helping us clarify that path. When someone is going through that in your own journey as well, please feel free to include that. What are some ways that people can navigate it in a way that can feel productive?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, that's a really great question. And I think it first starts with just being very clear about your value set. Okay, what do I believe? What is important to me? And like you said, yes, I was ambitious and I had big goals and dreams for my life, but I also knew that my value set looked like being a mom was going to be very important to me. I didn't feel like it was going to ever be my identity. That never felt like part of my journey. It was going to be a big part of my role in life. But I also knew I was going to have a career in education and everything else. So you got.

I think we each have to get very clear on what is my value set. I knew that I was. My family's going to come first for a long time, mostly because I had so many children. But then, even then, I wasn't sure if I was going to be okay with daycare. Was I going to need childcare in the home? What was that going to feel like? And just to be very open to changing plans. Like, if I had had a very rigid mindset around physician assistant school, then we'd be having a very different conversation, right? Because I would have pushed forward. But instead I was able to listen. I'm not always able to.

I'm not trying to say that I always have it do the right thing, but at that time, I think it was. I was able to just kind of listen both to my own intuition and to being flexible, to maybe there was a better plan. And I'm so grateful for the plan that has happened in my life. It hasn't always been easy. The years of full time motherhood, I'm like, I'm going to lose my mind. How does anybody do this? This drives me crazy. And then, of course, additional challenges when you are working, too. So, yeah, getting very clear with your values, being flexible and then being very willing to feel peace no matter where you are.

Maybe you are in a phase of working more than you would like to be. You'd like to be home more. Maybe it's vice versa. But working on staying present and being peaceful wherever we are is going to bring us the most joy no matter what's going on, for sure.

Lisa Virtue

That presence is so key, isn't it? Well, and you touched on so many things I'd like to recap. One is that there are a lot of moms and probably a lot of the listeners on this podcast in particular, because the people that I talk to, where it's there, don't feel their calling necessarily is to be full time, stay at home mom forever. And even when you look at it biologically, most women's are. Is not.

Bonnie Wiscombe

It doesn't last that long.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, exactly. And some, like, we're going into this respite help for foster parents. So we're in this world of fostering, and even that, like, that is not a career per se because it doesn't pay the bills.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

There's not enough income for things like that. So even if you do want to have longevity, they also cut you off. You can't be a foster parent forever because you get older. So I see this a lot with women when they either decided to take a break but did it intentionally from the workforce and did a whole different job, which we know is more than full time being a mama and staying home with their kids and helping raise them. And then there's this evolution of, okay, now what? Now what do I do? And some people have, like, a fallback, or they knew that they were going to do that, and I see other women that are just kind of thrown in going, yeah, oh, my gosh, I need to figure this out now that my kids are in school full time or they're older. Um, and also, it'd be nice to be able to pay for that college or whatever those resources are that we get from our careers, too.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

To help our family. So you had that pretty intentional. Did you know, did you have a vision of, like, what this would look like when I'm later in life, when I go back into the workforce? How did that evolve for you?

Bonnie Wiscombe

I actually did not. It was surprisingly, because you would have thought. I would have thought, all right, when am I. When am I going to get back out of the house and be able to do something? But I didn't. Honestly, I just. I felt peace going forward. And frankly, you know, eight years down the road, I was like, well, I'm actually really glad because working would have been almost impossible for me with all these little babies. But what's so interesting that you say that is, that's kind of my focus with my coaching business right now is I coach a lot of moms who want to build businesses, and very often it's that stage of life where their babies are no longer babies.

Maybe they're just hit kindergarten or. Or maybe even their oldest is already in college, but they have some younger ones, and they're like, oh, oh, there's like 50 years left in my life.

Yeah.

And for some reason, when our babies are little, we love to kind of fall into that trap of, it's going to always be like this, and it just isn't. Even when I've. I've had babies in my home for 16 years, but it's over. Like, it just. And kind of sounds. I sound like an old lady when I say it, but kind of in the blink of an eye.

Right.

It really does pass relatively quickly. And so what are the. The days are long, but the years are short.

Right.

Isn't that true?

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, it's so.

Bonnie Wiscombe

But to acknowledge.

Yeah.

That that time lasts for a long time afterwards and. And to just start thinking about it even if you're not ready or maybe, you know, that you want to go back full time eventually. Just start thinking, what's that going to look like? What's that going to feel like? What are my kids going to be doing? How are we going to balance the things at home?

Um.

I think that's a really powerful reminder.

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

And I know when we first met and talked, talking about phases in life and accepting those different chapters and also acknowledging that there are different chapters, I think, to your point, probably is biological.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

Where biology is like, just get you through the day. You're not as long term because you got to keep other humans alive.

Bonnie Wiscombe

This is true.

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

So it makes a lot of sense that it's just not something. And having this and the time to do that work, I know, can also feel very daunting or just not available for a lot of moms. So when they're in that transition state.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

Transition is the hardest. Looking at it, like, okay, that phase of my life is transitioning, and now what is my next phase look like?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah. And.

Well, and let me say, too, that I think that when we look at it from that perspective, it feels very natural and welcoming. Sometimes we think of the next phase almost like, you know, we focus too much on the ending. Oh, my babies are all big. Now I have to go do this thing. But instead, it's just this blossoming. Right. I don't think that the caterpillar is sad when he has to crawl into the crystal, as he knows it's just time to move on. And what comes out is this beautiful thing.

So to acknowledge that this is a beautiful faith and the next one will be equally beautiful, just with different challenges and different blessings.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, for sure. So when a mom is going from full time mama to now, I call it career mama. I even wrote a book called Career Mama. Right. Where I say, you have two careers because it's a portfolio of your work. Raising your children is a beautiful portfolio of the work you have put into this earth, in this life, and then you've got this secular career where you're a professional and you're getting paid for the work you're doing. What kind of steps do you have women go through? Maybe they're looking to start a business or be flexible with their career. What do you have them first look at?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Well, honestly, one of the first things we talk about is the confidence issue, because when you're, if you think back to when you were 18, 1920, like, maybe wrapping up college, thinking about what kind of career you want to step into, you had some really wild, crazy confidence that you did not earn. Most of us were, like, 22. Like, what are we going to do with our life?

Lisa Virtue

Yes.

Bonnie Wiscombe

The sky was the limit, and we had no business being that confident. We knew nothing. Right.

Lisa Virtue

By the way, if you want a little confidence boost or energy boost, just hang out with the age group. Right. Totally do a lot of volunteering with those age groups.

Bonnie Wiscombe

And I love it because I'm like, whoo.

Lisa Virtue

There's that energy.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Nonstop energy.

Yeah.

You're like, I just need a nap. But then we go out into the world, and whether we, we start our families or we go into the workforce or both, and what I've seen happen, especially with those who choose to stay home with, with their families, primarily for many years, is this decrease, gradual decrease in confidence. And when they go back into the workforce, it's like, I don't remember this. I don't remember that.

Lisa Virtue

I don't.

Bonnie Wiscombe

What, what do I dress for, wear for an interview? Like, what is Google sheets? And, you know, the. The lack of being in the, in the working world for a long time really makes their confidence take a hit. So that's one of the first things we talk about. First of all, we talk about all of the amazing skills that you build as a mom, because if there's anybody I want to manage a project, it's a mom who knows how to balance.

Right?

Like three pediatrician appointments and a birthday party and make sure dinner gets on the table.

Right.

We have some incredible skills. They just don't happen to be monetized generally in the world. Right. So to focus on that and then to also remind ourselves that it is going to feel a little awkward. It does feel kind of like just your very first job, like, back you, like the first one you had right out of college.

Right.

So. So acknowledge that. Be gentle with yourself. Um, but, but really work on that and remind yourself that you have all the skills and tools you need to go out and, uh, reenter the workforce and whatever you're missing can, can easily be picked up. Cause you're intelligent and totally capable.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, I'd like to touch on that for a second too, because my change management background is the awareness, desire, and then you have to have the knowledge and abilities to actually move forward that change.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

One thing that I will recommend to all the moms that are listening, that are thinking about this transition, or anyone that's looking to do a career pivot to is just talk to people about it.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

There's a lot, like you mentioned Google sheets. It's a good point. There's a lot of moms that just don't know what is the latest tech? Have I been using it at home? You might have. There might be things you actually are using that are in the workforce. But if you just find that mentor, someone you can sit down with or coach and you can ask, okay, what are some. Just basic skills? What should I start youtubing for free or going to an online course? Just brush up on those things and it doesn't take a lot of time.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right. This is.

Lisa Virtue

The moms are so capable and quick learners. Really?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, absolutely. There's nothing we can't pick up. And this happens with a lot of the women I coach surrounding business.

Right.

They get so overwhelmed at the idea of all this tech and all this software. I have to figure out, like, look, if I can figure it out, you can figure it out. All it takes is a handful of YouTube videos. But I love your point of pull someone aside. Maybe you are looking at a business career pivot and you're thinking, maybe I want to go into this industry. Yeah. Find a mentor, find a friend. Say, can I just pick your brain over lunch? Tell me what I'm going to.

What are the three programs I'm going to need to use day in, day out? How can I get started with them? Would, could I hire you for a couple hours to take a look at them? Like, how can I increase my confidence and skill level so that when I go into an interviewer, I go look into this, these opportunities. I feel so much better about myself.

Absolutely.

Lisa Virtue

Because it's so easy for us to be like, oh, I'm just going to go research it online. So much noise out there, people and every industry.

Bonnie Wiscombe

I mean. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

And you're going to get conflicting information. So just cutting to the chase and being really vulnerable and asking for help is what we're also saying.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right? Yeah, that's very powerful.

Lisa Virtue

Oh, man. What else would you like to tell the moms that are looking to go back to work or start a business.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah.

You know, one of the concepts that I teach a lot is that of cognitive dissonance. So what that means is, like, when our brain doesn't match up with our current actions. So, like, let's say, for example, you do really want to go back to work full time. Your kids are in school, and you're thinking, this is the time for me. But your brain is like, has this narrative going on, right? You can't do it. You're out of practice.

You don't remember your skills.

Whatever your. Whatever certificate needs to be re create, done, whatever, reupt. Um, so, you've got this narrative going on, and it is extremely difficult for your mind and body to get to work doing something your brain does not believe in. So, that's one of the pillars of my coaching, is that we take a look at that brain and we pull out those little poisonous narratives and we say, what does your brain really believe here and why? And there's always a reason. We don't want to, you know, get mad at our minds for the way they're thinking. There's a reason right there. Maybe there is some proof that you don't know the software that's the most current. Maybe there is some proof that, yes, your certificate is expired, and you have to go figure that out.

But all of that is optional.

All of these thoughts and narratives are optional. We get to change them at any time. And sometimes it sounds a little woo. Like, well, I'm just changing my. My mantra here, and everything's going to be okay, but that really is the power of the mind. If we can switch into something that also feels believable.

Right?

So, yes, maybe I don't know how to use software, but I've learned software programs in the past. I'm very capable. You just switch it that much, and all of a sudden, you have this very powerful narrative that is then moving you forward instead of keeping you stuck. So, the power of that brain, I just. I don't think, can be overstated.

Lisa Virtue

Absolutely, because it's trying to keep us safe. Right. Neuroscience tells us about the amygdala. It's just trying to survive, but it hasn't evolved to the place of. We are not typically in that fight flight situation. So it's making up these stories, for sure. Um, I liken them to limiting beliefs, too.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right?

Lisa Virtue

This same concept where. What is limiting you from taking action? I just had a client the other day where big dreams to move across the country do similar work, but in a whole different place. And a lot of it just. It was just this line of questioning and having someone to talk to about going through that.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, okay.

Lisa Virtue

What is limiting you? And then when people see it and say it out loud, it's like, oh, yes, well, duh. I know what to do about that. But having someone that can support you in that is so valuable.

Bonnie Wiscombe

One of the first tools I teach some of my clients is to do what I like to call a brain dump. So when we're feeling really stuck or like we just can't move forward, we just sit down with a piece of paper and we write down all the thoughts that are coming up around this specific topic. And very often, like four or five thoughts in, we're like, oh, well, that's problematic.

Yes.

Like, we're harboring these stories and we have no idea that they're there, but they are kind of poisoning the well, just so to speak. And once we get them out, our higher brain is like, oh, well, I don't believe that. That's not true at all.

Right. Right.

And she can kind of take over again going, okay, lower brain, I get it. You're scared. You're freaked out. You think, we can't do this. But actually, I think we can.

Right.

You just kind of have this little conversation with yourself and go, all right, we're going to shift this thought right here because I can absolutely tell that this one is going to cause us some problems.

Yes.

Lisa Virtue

That's beautiful. I love that. The internal dialogue.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah.

With yourself, you might feel crazy. It's totally normal.

Yep.

Lisa Virtue

Very important to do it.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yes.

Lisa Virtue

Oh, that's great. Um, what other tips do you have for the listeners?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, well, I would love to teach your listeners, uh, the, what we call the life coaching model and how it works with their brain. So I like to call. There's a couple of different, uh, ways to refer to it. I like to call it the head, heart and hands model. And so that looks like is basically just how, uh, stimulus enters our, our brain and what we do with it.

Right.

So, uh, basically, stimulus happens. Something happens outside of us. Our head makes a story about it, gives us a thought. Our heart then processes that story into some sort of an emotion. Then we feel something, and then it moves into our body where our hands either get to work or become paralyzed, regardless, you know, depending on what the. What the feeling is that we're feeling, and then we have some sort of result. So a simple example might be, let's say you're, you're thinking about going back to work. So the stimulus is job opportunity.

The thought is probably something like, I don't know if I can do this. And then the emotion would be something like fear reluctance. Right. And then the action or maybe inaction could be sitting around doing nothing to further myself, to apply to the job or to, you know, brush up on my skills. And the result is I don't get this opportunity because my brain took over. So following that path is really, really beneficial. So when you do that brain dump, if you can pull out a thought that's problematic and then stick it in that model, say, okay, I've got this thought. That's what my head's doing.

What is it making my heart do? What is the emotion that's coming from that? Because emotion drives everything, right? If we can get to the root of the emotion, then we know this is why I'm sitting around and not doing anything. It's not because I lack motivation, it's because I keep telling myself that's not going to work out.

Right.

So that that model has been really.

Lisa Virtue

Model.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

I think sometimes two people feel first, right. So they might be feeling something and then they have to find the thought. So I'm sure it plays with it. Like the model could go both ways.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, you can.

In fact, very often I'll ask them, what are you feeling right now? Because sometimes we can't identify the thought until we know the feeling and then go, oh, it's because I don't believe this is going to happen that I feel so anxious or whatever.

Lisa Virtue

And I don't know if you do. You find this with your clients where a lot of times it's a lot easier to say your feelings, but then it's can be hard to actually express out loud because once you do, like we were just saying, once you do put it out loud, the other part of your brain's like, well, that's silly, or we can overcome that.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, well, and sometimes it's just self indulgent, right? Sometimes I just want to sit and feel frustrated. And I know I have the tools to get myself out of frustration, but I'm just enjoying frustration right now and that's totally okay too. You can just sit and be anxious or angry or frustrated. That's a very important aspect of life, is learning to feel negative emotion. But when you're ready to be done with it, now you know what to do, you go find the thought that's causing it. You work on it a little bit. Do I really believe that's true? Do I want to hold on to it? Is there anything else that I could believe that is also true and could move me into empowerment?

I love that.

Lisa Virtue

You know, a couple other signs that we could talk about.

Bonnie Wiscombe

I.

Lisa Virtue

This, um. Oh, my gosh.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Free.

Lisa Virtue

Free freeze is what I'm thinking of. But the, um, flight, you know, all of the things our amygdala does with inaction, when we get to freeze, we're not taking action. I'm starting to see it exhibit in things like, okay, I'm going to go scroll TikTok right now.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

I'm going to go on social media. I'm going to go get distracted on Netflix. Like, it feels like that is our new free state in a lot of places. We've been seeing this, too.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah. The.

The term we use in the life coaching world is we're buffering, so we're going out to find something that's going to keep us, um, from feeling those emotions. Right? So my kids are freaking out and yelling at me, so I'm going to go sit in the corner and scroll Instagram so I don't have to deal with the uncomfortable emotion of him hurting her and him needing this and whatever. Like, I'm just going to go buffer from anything negative that's around me and it's not something we need to beat ourselves up over, but just to be aware.

Right.

Just that awareness of. Interesting. I had a long day, so I need some sort of a, you know, nervous system regulation right now. Do I want it to be instagram? It can be. Or do I want it to be going on a walk? Maybe I could take a kid with me. Do I want it to be laying down for five minutes or what do I need right now?

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Virtue

You need to find that dopamine hit because that's what social is doing for you.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Right.

Lisa Virtue

It's meaning that feeding that brain that wanted to just freeze up, now it feels like it's taking action even though.

Bonnie Wiscombe

There'S no result, even though it's just real.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, exactly.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yep.

Lisa Virtue

So finding that dopamine hit, I love it. Going for a walk, having conversation, doing something that's going to give you that connection and that interaction.

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

Beautiful. Love it. Well, Bonnie, this has been a great conversation. I really appreciate your time and all the tips and things that I feel like people can do right away to get started. If people want more from you, how can they find you?

Bonnie Wiscombe

Yeah, of course you can check me out on my website. It's Bonnie wisconsin.com, or I'm most active on instagram just under Bonnie wiscombe. And then I also have a download for anyone who is interested that I've created for. It's called mindset for working moms.

So if this sounds familiar to you.

Maybe you feel really plagued by indecision or guilt or overwhelm or any of those emotions that are pretty popular for us working moms when things feel like they're out of control. You can download that as well. It's Bonnie wiscombe.com mindset.

Great. Love it.

Lisa Virtue

Thank you so much again. I just enjoy having you and. Oh, my gosh. Ten kiddos. They're lucky to have you, Bonnie.

Bonnie Wiscombe

I'm just surprised nobody yelled while we were on our recordings.

Yeah.

They're so quiet.

Thank you.

A magic wand. Beautiful. We got lucky today. Thanks so much for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue

Thank you.