Lisa Virtue

Rowena, welcome. Thank you so much for being here with her career studio. I am just thrilled to get into it, not just because I get my reading done with astrology today, which I'm super excited about, but also because we're going to talk about perfectionism and how that affects our career and how we can get aligned in our career when we're plagued with that. It's interesting story. When I was working with a coach and I was moving into the executive world, I had not donned myself a perfectionist, and I had a coach reflect that back to me. And I said, but there's so much like, it feels like so much chaos or I don't have things organized the way I want it to. And she said, aha. That actually can be a sign of perfectionism.

And we walked through it and I found out, I dug more into it, that there is a phenomenon that happens with perfectionists where it can be messy perfectionism physically, but it's the mental space that it occupies that we identify as perfectionism. So I definitely identify now after doing all that research. So I'm excited to hear what you have to offer the listeners and tips and things we'll get into. But before we do that, let's talk about you and your story. Would love to hear more about how you got to where you are now and a little bit of your career journey. So go ahead.

Rowena

Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Lisa. My journey begins in terms of my career in school. I was a communication studies major at the College of New Jersey, and I decided after getting my bachelor's that I would go to graduate school. So I went to the University of Maryland in College park. Go, terps. To get my master's degree in communication, fully thinking I was going to get my masters and then, you know, do communication or public relations for a theater company or something of that sort. But turns out that I really enjoyed teaching undergraduate students and conducting academic research, so I decided to stay on for my PhD.

So fast forward, I got my bachelor's, master's and PhD in less than ten years. I'm sure the perfectionism tendencies helped with that a little bit. But after that, I got my first tenure track position as a faculty member at Virginia Commonwealth University, teaching in the mass communications department. And a couple of things happened in my time at VCU. First, my father passed away in 2013 from cancer. And for those of your listeners, if they've ever lost someone so close to you, you know, that kind of loss takes a toll. Right? It really changed my perspective in terms of what I was doing. What's my legacy? What do I intend to do with my career and my life? And so after that couple years later, I decided to actually leave academia, which was a huge decision on my part, because I thought that my career trajectory was be a professor, get tenured, stay in the academy forever, and that was it.

But I realized, you know, that life changing event of my father passing away made me think of what I wanted in my life, and not just in work, but in life. Right? And I realized that the job as a tenure track professor was so stressful, it really took a toll on my mental health. I got kidney stones my first year, and so I just was not healthy. And after seeing my father get sick and pass away, I knew that I wanted something that enabled me to have better work life. Integration. And I like to say integration because I feel like balance is a misnomer because our work and our lives are so integrated. And so I decided to leave that. I then worked for the communications industry.

So I worked as a communication manager for a computer assisted design company, in house, as in the marketing team. And then I worked for a digital marketing agency. And then another life event happened, and this is in 2020, when not only did the world shut down due to Covid-19 but I also had my daughter, and this was after having in vitro fertilization. So we did ivf to have her. So it was a journey in and of itself just to have my first child. And I had this second reckoning. So my father passing away led me to leave academia, and having my daughter led me to decide to pursue entrepreneurship. And I've always wanted to be an entrepreneur.

I always had aspirations to be an entrepreneur. And so having my daughter made me realize, well, why not? Why not try? And so in 2020, I decided to take the leap and to start my own business. It initially was just an astrology business where I did readings and reports of that nature. But a friend of mine talked to me and said, you know what, Rowena? Based on your extensive teaching experience, why not try coaching? I think you'd be a really great coach. And I was like, huh? I never really thought of that. So in 2021, I made a pivot and decided to become a coach and still integrate a lot of the astrology into, into the work that I do with my clients because I love it so much. And my clients get a lot out of it, too. I also incorporate tarot and human design, a lot of this fun stuff to help my clients get a better sense of who they are, because these really are tools that I use to give insight to my clients on what they can do in terms of their career and lives.

And so I am a career and empowerment coach. I help women. I help high achievers who are looking to overcome that perfectionism, that burnout, and that overwhelm and to really find that alignment that we're going to talk about today in terms of their careers and just their lives. So that's the quick and dirty version of my story, and I look forward to chatting more about how that lines up with the work I'm doing today.

Lisa Virtue

I love it. Okay, so you have gone through a lot in a short amount of time, and that can put a lot of stress on someone, too, right? So ivf and loss of your father, and then the world shuts down. We all experience that in different ways, but all together at the same time. Um, so I can absolutely relate to when things come, they come fast and they come hard, right? Like that. It's just heaviness. So when you're going through all of that, how did perfectionism creep up? What? Like, you look back and you say, oh, that was my perfectionist tendency. What did that look like for you?

Rowena

For me, it was the. The go, go, go nature of. Of everything. Like I mentioned, I got all of my degrees in such a quick amount of time. You know, I was writing my dissertation. I was writing hundreds and hundreds of pages, just getting the thing done. And I think it really prevented me from a staying present in the moment. I was always looking ahead, what's the next thing? What's the next thing? What's the next box that I need to check off? Right.

I never was able to stay present in the moment and get to celebrate everything that I had accomplished. I was always looking out for what's the next thing? What's the next thing? And tied to that, Lisa, I think the fact of the matter is I was always going external for everything. I was always looking for those external accomplishments, that external validation, to feel like that I'm enough. I felt like I had to go outside of myself to know that I'm worthy of these things and that I am enough just as I am. And so it prevented me from really, you know, having a conversation with myself and knowing that I don't have to do all of those things to be successful or even just to be seen and to be loved. You know what I mean?

Lisa Virtue

Yeah. So it came out like, if you weren't accomplishing x, then you were not perfect, and it was not good enough. And so then it was fight to get to that next thing, to get more of that perfectionist itch scratched. Right? Yeah. Love it. So your daughter, she's around four now?

Rowena

Yes.

Lisa Virtue

She just.

Rowena

Yeah, her birthday is March 8, so international women's Day.

Lisa Virtue

Ah, that's beautiful. Wow. And for your journey to motherhood, to be able to have her on that day. How precious is that? I love four year olds. It's such a fun time. My daughter's eight now, so we just doubled on. You doubled the time. Awesome.

Okay, so let's talk now, because I'm dying to know a little more about your astrology readings and how you incorporate that in coaching. Can you tell everybody about what you do there and why astrology? What were you drawn to with astrology?

Rowena

Oh, it's, you know, it's a funny story about what led me to astrology. So I was at that taint track position at Virginia Commonwealth University, and several of my colleagues there were into astrology. So I was like, no, okay, you know, I'll dabble. But this was right before my husband and I, my now husband and I got engaged. We were having horrible miscommunication. Like, there was just, we were just not on the same page. There was. There was fights.

It was just, we were not in a good place. And I saw, I believe it was Snapchat, out of all things, on Snapchat. And there was a story about this thing called Mercury retrograde, which, it's funny, at the time of this recording, we're actually in mercury retrograde right now.

Lisa Virtue

Right.

Rowena

Yeah. That's fascinating. So I read about it, and then I stormed into my colleague's office, and I said, is this what this is all about with me and my husband and Derek or whatever? And my colleague said, oh, girl, yeah, sit down. And she told me all about it. And that's what really got the ball rolling in terms of me wanting to know more about astrology. You know, I'm completely self taught. I just got books, and it's probably the scholar, the academic, just wanting to know more. So I just kept reading and learning and following and following other astrologers and learning from them.

And, yeah, so it led me to, as I mentioned, that first iteration of my business. And now as a coach, what I think is really powerful is your natal chart, your astrological chart can give you so much insight into who you are and why you may do the things you do and also how you build relationships with other people. And I want to say, I want to give this disclaimer right, because some folks who are not into it or they're unsure about it. They think it's very predictive. But astrology is not meant to say this is exactly what's going to happen at this XYz time. It's very similar to something like, like the Weatherman and weather patterns. Right. The weatherman is going to look at what the Doppler radar is saying and says, oh, it might rain today.

There's an x percent chance of rain. And maybe you bring your umbrella and you wear your boots out and you realize there's no rain today. So it's very similar with astrology. There are these patterns and things that come from your astrological chart or from what's going on astrologically, like mercury retrograde. That could happen, but it doesn't necessarily have to happen. But it's always nice to be prepared. Right. It's always nice to have your umbrella and your rain boots just in case it rains or in this sense, just in case something happens that's in your chart.

Lisa Virtue

I love it. Yeah. It's like any kind of mindset work, too. You can kind of rise above it and think, okay, this might be the why behind the what a little bit. And so I'm prepared, like you said, to address it, or you knew it could have been coming. So you can actually have that foresight into how to handle it instead of being in the heat of the moment.

Rowena

Right.

Lisa Virtue

Where did this come from? Why? You know?

Rowena

Yes, yes, yes. Definitely helps us be a little less reactive and more active.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, I love that. And I also, as a coach with personality assessments and everything, always advocate for. It's. What do you agree with? Right. And I've always found it fascinating. I'm in Aries and we're going to find out more about me in a second. But I always find it fascinating when I see, see readings or things that, you know, you said they're not predictive, but what the charts, when they come up on Instagram or I'm reading somewhere, I'm at a restaurant and there's a thing about your sign. Right.

And it's always fascinating when things really do resonate and it's just. Just another tool to understand yourself deeper. Right.

Rowena

Absolutely. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

Love it. Okay, should we get into it? Do you want to do a little demo?

Rowena

Let's get into it. So when I pull up charts for people, I always, first and foremost, take just a very broad view glance of what the chart looks like and, you know, in terms of where planets are placed or if they're all concentrated in a specific, a specific area of your chart. So, Lisa, looking at your chart, I would say your chart is fairly balanced. So one half of the chart really focuses on the self, like the I, and the other half of the chart focuses more on the other, or like the relationships or the we. And I'd say that your planets are pretty spaced out, which doesn't always happen. I've read charts where they're, like, all concentrated on one, one particular thing. What's funny is that I have a lot of planets in my chart that are focused on the third house of communication, which is funny because my background is in communication, so it all panned down that way. So that's the first thing.

I also like to look at the elements in your chart, the four elements, fire, earth, air, and water, because the elements are another key in terms of the type of person that you are or what may be some traits or what be some ways that you exist in, in this world. And so, Lisa, you have a lot of fire in your chart, which you said, you know, you're an Aries, so Aries is a fire sign. So, so very much of the go getter, very, very, again, like, proactive, very motivated, go, go, go type of, type of personality. And maybe that's that perfectionist that you're bringing up, too, that you're, you're always going. So a lot of fire in the chart. Now, when it comes to career, specifically, there are three areas in the chart that I like to take a look at to give, give us a sense of what, what it, what your career vision or your career aspirations could be. Uh, the first is the 10th house. So when you think of the astrological chart as a wheel, the wheel is cut into these, these parts or slices, and these parts or slices are called the houses.

So there are twelve houses in everybody's chart, and each house represents a particular something or an essence, right? So, for example, the first house is like the house of the self, of like the I am. So there's that notion. The 7th house represents relationships and partnerships. And so, in the astrological chart, depending on where things lie on your chart, those could add some more additional flavor to what's happening there. So the 10th house in your astrological chart is what is representative of the career and the reputation or professional life embodied or public life embodied. And so, Lisa, your 10th house is in Taurus. So I don't know if you know much about Taurus as a sign, but it's an earth sign. My moon signs, actually, in Taurus.

So I know a lot about Taurus. But Taurus is a very. It's stability, it's groundedness. Taurus has a lot of good leadership qualities. Taurus also represents resources and money. So, you know, that may be in terms of your career, like offering maybe in your coaching. Right. Offering groundedness and stability to your clients.

Or maybe it's how you approach your business. What are your, what are your thoughts on. On that piece?

Lisa Virtue

I think that's very interesting because then I have been married 18 years, so there's stability there. And with relationships, I have a lot of friends that'll say, oh, it doesn't matter if we haven't seen each other in years. You know, we click right back to where we were. So I guess there's that consistency and stability. And then with my career, I've taken a lot of risks. So it's interesting. But I absolutely. Yeah, my clients can rely on me.

Right. There's a reliability factor there. There is. I am trying to get more consistent with things like social media. This is why I have a podcast. Like, I want to get tools and resources out there to match my mission. So I would say I haven't always been in alignment with that, and I think that's when I have, I struggle. So that's really fascinating.

Rowena

Well, it's. What's also interesting you mentioned the struggle is that you also have. It's an asteroid called Chiron that's also in your 10th house. And Chiron represents the wounded healer. So have you experienced or in your. In, you know, as a child or anything, any wounds tied to success or tied to work?

Lisa Virtue

Oh, yeah, I just worked with a coach, especially around, like, money mindset. And the things that came up that I did never would have put along with how I perceived money or approached it. And in the success part of the business, too, popped up from my childhood that I was fascinated to see. And so, yes, I actually did some of that work very recently. And, yeah, that pain we carry with us. Right. Years later. Oh, it's insane what we carry with us.

Rowena

Well, it's in your chart, so I'm glad that you're doing that work now and that you're able to reflect back on that and see how we can turn things around. So that's Chiron. The other aspect that I look at when it comes to career and astrology is called the midheaven. So again, as I mentioned, the chart being a wheel. So now if we look at the chart as a clock, the Midheaven is at the 12:00 point in your chart. And that also represents career professional path, that sort of thing. Again, your midheaven is also in the 10th house in that career. And so again, it's in Taurus.

So I think this is an indicator of, okay, we really need to work on the practicality of things because that's also a Taurus quality too, is very practical. It's not my sun signs of pisces, so it's not like the woo. There's a practicality to Taurus. Right. And they're also, you know, talking about the shadow side of things. Taurus also can be a bit stubborn. So, yeah, yeah. So it's.

Maybe it's like trying to make things work out that are not working, but because of that stubborn nature, like trying to force it. But as you mentioned, as you mentioned, like with clients, being very steady, being very loyal, being a stable force for your clients is really important. And Taurus is very intentional. I mentioned, for me, not having that intentionality when it came to my perfectionism. Well, Taurus energy is the opposite of that. There's intention with everything. There's a purpose to everything. You know, maybe working through how you can bring more that consistency that, you know, that intentionality and that groundedness into your work can, can serve you quite well.

Lisa Virtue

I love it. And that is definitely consistency is key, as written on my sticky note right now as my theme, because I know about myself that I'm also creator, and I'm creative, and I want to, and I want to give and I want to help. And so, yes, forcing, like time to stop is something I try to do right? So I can do all the things, but knowing I can't do it all myself, so really finding collaboration and people that can help me on the consistency side is something I like. I just hired a social media manager who's going to help, help that algorithm be consistent, because I am not consistent. You know, there's just something about me that I've known to within my work that there's certain pieces I'll absolutely be consistent, reliable with, because that's my zone of genius. But when it comes to other parts of our business, right, we have to let go a little bit and know that that's not our forte. We need somebody else who can do that work. And so why not give jobs and help other people?

Rowena

Well, like I said, Taurus represents leadership, too. So recognizing those gaps and taking a step back and bringing people into the fold that can serve for that particular purpose, I think is wonderful and a great embodiment of that Taurus energy. So also, Taurus can and you mentioned helping. So Taurus can also be represented as great healers. So being able to help and heal and to be a sounding board for your clients is helpful as well. So, so there's that. And then the. It's so funny.

You mentioned, you know, you know, wanting to go, go. As I mentioned, you have that, you have so much fire in your chart. So it's that fire in your chart that's, that's motivating you to go, go, go. But again, remembering that, you know, taking, taking rests and taking a pause as needed, I know, can be, can be challenging, but very, very helpful for you.

Lisa Virtue

You know what that reminds me of? You'll probably relate to this with having a four year old daughter frozen, too. Have you seen it?

Rowena

Oh, have I seen it?

Lisa Virtue

How many times? Repeat?

Rowena

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah, I should say. How many times have you actually watched? So the little fire lizard. Oh, my gosh, it's so funny. He always, like, loves the ice because then it can rest. I'm going to start thinking about that when I'm going really hard and I need a break. Like be the little lizard, find that ice. Calm down.

Rowena

Yeah, he's so happy in that ice.

Lisa Virtue

You know what I mean? He needs a break.

Rowena

Yeah, he needs a break. So, yeah, we all can be that little lizard friend.

Lisa Virtue

I love it.

Rowena

I think that's a great. I might have to print out a picture of him or something, my desk, because. Yeah, that's a lovely image and reminder that even, even this fire spirit, he's a fire spirit. Like he, you know, he does a lot of. A lot. He has a lot of power. Because that's the thing, too. I think a lot of us think that resting or taking a break is a sign of weakness, but when really it's.

No, it's a strength because we need that rest. We need that recharge time. And oftentimes in those moments of rest, we get the best ideas. We get charged up again, and we're inspired because we've taken the time to, to chill and to calm down a bit.

Lisa Virtue

It's so true. You have to have it. And, you know, it's interesting because as we talk about women in career, too, and what's maybe different about our gender, one thing that I have seen in my lived experience is people will notice and say, oh, make sure you take care of yourself, too, especially if you're that healer and you're that giver and you're that support for others. And I've always had that nature about me. And even in the first part of my career before I went full time career coaching. That was a common theme, that that's what I was doing. And so people would say it. But then there's this contradiction that happens societally, and even maybe in family, where I had one of my grandmas said that my other grandma was selfish because she would take care of herself.

Like, she used the word selfish. Right. And it fat. To this day, I just think about how wrong that was and how the other grandma actually gave me a lot more example as a career woman of what I needed to do with more of a balance with my day and everything than this other grandma who called her selfish. It was so fascinating, and she didn't do it out of spite or anything, and it just was in a conversation. And I still just remember that rubbed me, thinking I would have never called her that. She was just taking care of herself so she could take care of others. Right.

Rowena

Well, I know that as moms, we try our best, right. That we're doing so much, but we also. Yeah. As you mentioned, we should role model to our children what it is to take breaks and to have healthy boundaries and to take time for family. I know that that's really hard for me as someone who. I like to have a clean house and, you know, but let me. I don't need to put away the toys right now. Let me spend time with my kids.

I think that. Yeah, that's a challenge.

Lisa Virtue

Yeah. And you mentioned it earlier. Integration. Great way to say it. Career and life integration. I talk about harmony, too, where you have harmony between your career and life, because it isn't about. You're never going to be balanced, you know, the justice leveling, that's never going to actually happen because you have to spend energy differently in different chapters, different times of day, in different parts of your life. And so, um, being fully present.

Right, like you were just describing, beautiful, with your children, being present in that moment versus trying to force this kind of balance. Or. I have to do. I should. I should. I have to, have to.

Rowena

Yeah. Yeah. The. The shoulding on ourselves is. Is. Is something that we need to work on, for sure. And I. I think we need to give ourselves the grace and space to remember that, as you mentioned, that sometimes we need to be in this aspect of our life, in our career, and sometimes we need to be with our family, and sometimes we need to be over here.

And it is. It's like a. It's checks and balances and that it's. It's okay if we might be not as much on this one end, but doing more here, and that's just life. You know, we. We have various roles and responsibilities, and we. There's no way we can't do it all. It's just not possible.

Lisa Virtue

Yep. Absolutely.

Rowena

Yeah. So there's one more part of the chart when it comes to career, that I especially talk about this particular aspect with clients because I find it so powerful. It's actually related to the moon. So these are called lunar nodes. And the north node is a point in your chart that is considered your karmic path or, like, your soul journey or your destiny, which I find it makes me think very much of the hero's journey situation, where. Okay, this is where we're headed at the end of things, or this is where we're trying to head in our lifetime. And again, it's so funny, Lisa, that you mentioned the creativity and that aspect of it, because your north node is in the first house in Leo. And I don't know how familiar are with Leo, but Leo is the lion.

It's a fire sign. It represents creativity. It represents charisma and joy. And so there's having this fire sign in your first house. And again, first house is selfdevelop. So, you know, when it comes to career, it's. It's this message, this. This notion of you, you depending on yourself and knowing that you have all that you need to create what? And again, it's great.

You're. You're hiring a social media, or you hired a social media manager. It's not saying that you have to do every single thing by yourself, but you are the. You are the. The soul. You know, you're the. The hub of it, all, right? That you know exactly what you need and who you need to hire in order to do your best work. And so, you know, I mentioned the north node is where you're headed.

The south node is where you came from and where you were coming from. And this is if. I don't know if anyone listening or if you believe in past lives, but this is kind of a past lives situation, where in a past life, your embodiment was in Aquarius, which is more community focused, which is more outside of the box kind of rebellious energy there. Whereas you're now moving into this north node of Leo in the first house, which is moving away from partnership and more on reliance of yourself. So trusting yourself, knowing that you don't need approval to do what you're meant to do, and to trust and have faith that you have the creative power, the fire, the wherewithal, to make it happen.

Lisa Virtue

How empowering is this? Yeah.

Rowena

And that's just it, Lisa. I am a firm believer of empowerment, astrology, a coach that I work with, you know, that was her lens as well. And that's just it. I don't use astrology to be doom and gloom and be like, these horrible things are going to happen or like, you have these horrible traits. It's like, no, this is what. And not all. It's not all. Always puppies and rainbows.

Right. But it is like, like the chiron that we talked about, that woundedness, that that's not exactly a happy go like thing, but it's empowering the sense that. But now you're working on it. You're working on healing those wounds tied to money and tied to your childhood that you may have that can then bring you to a more aligned version of yourself. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue

I love it. It's so fascinating. I'm open to all concepts you asked about the past lives and believing in that. It's fascinating, too, because the first chapter of my career, so 20 years, I was always with the team, always in community and actually at even community center at one point. Right. So, like, working constantly and now as a solopreneur and having to be on my own, it was definitely a major shift in just comfort level, too, with that. So whether it was a past life or just a past chapter in this life, I definitely agree with that. And I can see how that can affect.

Yeah. And like any transition. Right. Knowing that we, again, understanding what we need and we're so individual. So individual, all of us. And that's what I love about what you do is you can bring together all these elements to show how individual you are. Just because someone like me is an Aries doesn't mean you're going to be cookie cutter like every other Aries out there. Right, right.

Rowena

Exactly. And that's. That's another. Thank you for bringing that up. That's another. That's another tidbit I want to bring home for your listeners is that. Yeah, it isn't. It isn't cookie Cutter.

You know, the. The fact is that we all have these astrological charts that are, that are nuanced and that have layers to it. And that's why I enjoy studying astrology so much, is because there's always something new to bring, to bring to the table.

Lisa Virtue

I love it. Thank you so much for that reading. That was wonderful. I will take it and analyze it. Try not to be a perfectionist about it. I love it. Rowena, our time is getting close to the end. Do you have any other takeaways that you want to make sure to share with our listeners today?

Rowena

I wanted to bring in this quote that I love from another coach, Nicole Khalil, which is. Perfectionism is the enemy of confidence. I thought that was so powerful because, yeah, you can't show up as your fully authentic self if you were shackled by, by perfectionism, because perfectionism kind of help it. It causes us to stay within the confines of structure or what we already know or what we're most comfortable with. We can't step outside of that and, and push ourselves to our edges and experience life in a fully embodied way if we are tied to that perfectionism. So I would just say, you know, step outside your comfort zone. Try to try things, learn things, explore things, things like astrology, and just be creative. Like, like Lisa is all the time in terms of exploring your career and, and what's next for you.

Lisa Virtue

And there's resources, too, right? You don't have to do it alone. Some of us do a ton of research. We see all the noise out there, but just having someone to be able to reflect it back can really be powerful, too. So, Rowena, if people want to connect with you directly, where can they find you?

Rowena

Yeah. So I'm on all the social media channels at rbwinkler PhD, and then you can find me on my website@rowenawinkler.com dot.

Lisa Virtue

Beautiful. And, of course, we'll have all that in the show notes. Thank you so much for your time. Thank you for the reading. I really appreciate it. And just, yeah, have fun in the Mercury retrograde.

Rowena

I'll try my best.

Lisa Virtue

We'll get through it.

Rowena

We'll get through it together. Thanks, Lisa. Yeah.