Lisa Virtue:

Jaclyn, welcome. Thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and your story with the listeners.

Jaclyn:

Yes, thank you so much for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue:

It's also such a treat because you physically live close to me. I don't have a lot of podcast guests that live close. So we're enjoying a beautiful summer tank top weather right now.

Jaclyn:

Yes. In plus 100 degree weather, which is also rare inside.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. So today we're going to talk about what we can optimize in our career journey, especially as women, and how to really be looked to as a thought leader, how to grow in our careers, if that's our ambition. And we have so many challenges. You know, I know you and I both have lots of stories in our own career journeys, and women that are listening will undoubtedly have their own. So I wanted to talk about that, you know, you're not alone, that kind of thing. Um, and then get into what kind of support system can we get around us as we're looking to fulfill those ambitions and grow in our career? We know we don't do it alone. We really need that support. So, Jaclyn, let's talk first, because everyone's always dying to know from my listeners, why are you here today and how did you come to be in this position? So why don't you tell us a little bit about your career journey?

Jaclyn:

Yes. And so I tend to surprise people with my career journey because it spans a lot of different, not necessarily connecting worlds. So I started out in school and going all the way back to college in education, but realizing pretty quickly during student teaching that I didn't necessarily want to educate kids in a traditional sense. So I had to figure out something else after that. Went then into a small company, what we would now call a startup. Wasn't a word then 20 plus years ago, startup wasn't a thing. That's essentially what it was. I was employee number seven, but we essentially built out teams, processes, organizations, tools.

Jaclyn:

And I was there for quite a few years and really loved initially the training and the mentoring and coaching and really the optimizing of innovation and just bringing everyone together to figure things out. And I do feel like that is a lot of what coaching and mentoring really is, is coming together and figuring things out. So after that, and I wind up leading finance and operations for that company while starting out as an executive assistant, moved through pretty quickly. Then I went to a really large company, a Fortune 1000 financial services tech company, and was kind of thrust into this smaller role in a department. I honestly had no idea what it was. I had no idea what I was getting into, but I was like, yes, these are the same skills I've been using. I can do this. And was able to do that, got a few promotions through that role, went to a Fortune 500 company, a very well known retailer that everyone globally knows, and then moved to a Fortune 100 tech company.

Jaclyn:

And through those I still pivoted and jumped roles, jumped apartments. My role title has never been the same and getting promotions at every single job while also either mentoring and coaching, either my direct reports building teams or coaching and mentoring interns. Early career people at the Fortune 500 company, I actually led a business resource group for women in leadership where we owned really how we elevate women into not necessarily leadership roles, but to be leaders and people that are thought or look to for advice, for the thought seekers, for speakers through all corporate world, all the corporate headquarters and stores. So after all of those roles, I then moved into a tech company, a pre IPo tech company that is actually just went public. So I'm allowed to say those things. I still am also with them. And that's where I'm juggling this. So I'm juggling my company, which I'll talk about in a moment, and also tech company, while also still wanting to elevate women and elevate leaders and allow women to have a voice.

Jaclyn:

Because there's so many amazing things that we can do as women and even though we have stories and a point of our conversation is going to be how do we leverage our community, our network? We're not used to doing that. Women are used to doing everything on our own. So that's where I was like, I really want to make a difference more impactful to individual lives, not just generic. So that's where I started looking at coaching programs. I had taken some executive coaching kind of long term programs when I was at the retailer, but life coaching wasn't really calling to me because I really wanted to focus on women's careers. So that's where I found a career coaching association, International association of Career Coaches, graduated with my career coaching certification 2023 and launch my business upper roast coaching. So then in uppers coaching, I'm basically focusing on elevating women to leadership roles, whether they are already in leadership roles. A lot of my clients are either right below manager level, manager level, senior manager, director levels, but don't necessarily have a large amount of either, say, voice in the company or have very small teams where they really want to make a larger impact on the company and on others.

Jaclyn:

So that's where I'm really focusing my career coaching specifically in the retail and tech industry, since that's the majority of my experience.

Lisa Virtue:

Beautiful. You know, we have so much in common. I didn't realize you also started out early in your career as an executive assistant. Same going from executive assistant up to executive. Right. It's a very interesting journey and something a lot of people, especially new grads I noticed, undercut the concept of small to medium businesses and like don't really go for those roles. And I would, I am a huge advocate for it because it gives you such a breadth of experience. Right.

Lisa Virtue:

Sounds like you have something similar where you learn all these different roles. When I was titled executive Assistant, I was the HR manager, I was the accounting director, I was the payroll specialist. I did all these things and got, and we were also becoming ISO standardized. So I got this international business background and opportunity there. So very interesting that we have that in common. So I'm not surprised that you're at the place you are too.

Jaclyn:

Yes, yeah, exactly. And I think you're right. People don't necessarily, they want to go for the big name tech companies, the big name retail companies, where it's really hard to get in, especially if you don't have connections at those companies where the small and medium businesses, the startups are honestly the places to go. They're where you can have the most growth, the most learning. Also decide what you want to do, because most people change their career multiple times at least, but certainly from entry level to mid career, and that's where you can really learn. And as long as you understand how to sell and storytell those skills into different roles, how those are transferable, it's certain there is a logic and attacked to it, but it's teachable. That's why I love talking to my clients about how we can do that, because it's so interesting and it's honestly.

Lisa Virtue:

So fun for sure. And that's also where you start building those connections. We're going to talk about different people in your career journey, in your world, and how you mentioned the word leverage. I also want to put it out there. One of the challenges we have, especially as women, we're very collaborative, stereotypically, right? There are some competitive women and we are competitive in different ways in different parts of our life. But I see so often, and I think your clients are similar to mine, it's like, yeah, but I don't want to use someone, I don't want to come out. It's like. Feels dirty to call it networking, even like I don't I'm not a networker.

Lisa Virtue:

I'm not comfortable doing that. Because they feel like they're using someone.

Jaclyn:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Versus this confidence of let's collaborate and help each other out in our career journeys. Because that's what it is. That's what life is. Right. Helping our community members.

Jaclyn:

Yep. And we're just, as women, we're used to doing everything on our own for ourselves or kind of the separate side of that, not necessarily taking the credit where credits do. So if we're on a project, using the word we a lot and constantly coaching my clients is to. When you're interviewing, it's all about I. When you're talking and you're presenting internally. Sure, use the we but still take ownership. That's how we advocate for ourselves because there, everyone has to do that. And men are really good at it and women honestly aren't because we don't want to give credit to ourselves, but we also don't necessarily want to leverage and ask our community to help us or support us.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, absolutely. And then there's stereotypes and biases at work. And I see a lot of times it's women actually talking about other women that pull each other down as opposed to a man looks at it and goes, oh, well, she's just collaborating with that person. Another woman can say, oh, she's networking. Like, make it this bad thing. So even us as women, being able to speak to it in a way that is uplifting for other women and not this gossip or this negative talk in the workplace, I think we still have a long way to go in that regard. Yeah. And I've personally seen all sides in my 20 plus years in my career and have had male advocates and female advocates, and I've also seen women tear each other down.

Lisa Virtue:

And I've also had it affect me. And I've seen men also have bias. So, you know, both genders are to blame. But I do think we need to take some of that accountability for ourselves as well and make sure we're not doing it because it's really easy to get into that chatter or pull things down for other women, too.

Jaclyn:

Yeah, exactly. And it's very different culturally as well. There are definitely different cultures that lean more towards it, and they're, I think, not necessarily understanding that this isn't where companies and kind of the employee career space is leading to. It actually does create damage. And how can we use our networks again for better? How can we leverage them in a good way? And how can we be either advocates for others or then you just honestly don't say anything. But how can we lift women up? Because there are definitely still those senses of competition, not just on the men's side, but women against women as well. And that's honestly disservicing everybody. It's just not helping anyone or the company for that fact.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. And remembering our reputation is key. Like it ends up being a very small world, doesn't it, when we need references and we need people to advocate for us, for sure. Well, let's jump into that. Let's talk about what it looks like. And feel free to share your own story too, of the different. So there's a few different titles we're going to talk about. There's advocates.

Lisa Virtue:

So who can advocate for you in the workplace, champions, which can be slightly different than advocate, mentors and then coaches like you. And I feel free to start with, you know, any kind of definitions that you want to, with those words, terminology, anything you want to share there?

Jaclyn:

Yeah, and I think there's, out of the four, there are two very similar and two very similar. So mentors and coaches can be similar. And this is where I think the career coaching space is a little different because I consider myself half mentor, half coach. Because coaches traditionally, especially if you've taken life coaching, and I know Lisa, you have some life coaching certifications. I've taken some programs, but I'm not certified, is typically asking questions, thought provoking ideas to get your client to come to their own solution, where mentoring tends to be the kind of guiding them to it, but also giving advice. So one of my favorite stories I've told, in short on social media is one time where I had a leader and she was a new leader. I was reporting directly into her. So she was also my leader.

Jaclyn:

I was her direct report, but she was also mentoring me where she knew I wasn't happy and I wanted to explore these other areas, but I was completely stuck. I did not know who to go to, how to approach it. Plus, I was just nervous that if someone higher up saw me interviewing essentially other people within the company, would they think that I'm not interested in my role anymore? Would I be let go, etcetera, which luckily more companies are in favor for, for you to explore outside of your role, as long as it's within the same company. So then she basically immediately made multiple connections for me, connected me with several people across different departments just to literally learn about what they were doing, what their team was doing, see if it was a touch point or interest of me, which then allowed me to get into a stretch, an extra project so I could learn more about that role. And eventually I wind up actually going into more and that was a product facing role. A product facing role. And so, and I still tell the story because that made such an impact to me where she knew doing this, she was going to lose me on her team and I was one of the ones that had been there for a few years. I was an expert and my cross functional business partners really trusted me and they were quite upset when I left.

Jaclyn:

But they all understood and she understood that this is what was best for me. And I think that's where across all four of these terms and roles that we can play in everyone's atmosphere is it's all about the person and doing what is best for them. All of these are selfless, honestly, roles. So with mentor and coach, that's how I think about those. Anything that you want to say about those? Before we talk about the sponsor champion.

Lisa Virtue:

Advocate, I would love to share an example. And of course, people can play different, like multiple roles and kind of wave in between. And some people stay in their lane, don't they? Really good at one thing and that's what they want to do. I have an example of a mentor of mine who advocated for me as a champion. So now I'm using all the words behind closed doors for others to get an opportunity. But she also recommended that I look into coaching. So I've seen a lot of, and this is where I started to get professional coaching and development myself at that point in my journey, which is why I'm a huge believer in it because it really made such a difference. But my mentor recommended that I get a coach and I see that often because mentors acting as coach.

Lisa Virtue:

I think a coach can act as a mentor. Like you were saying, I do that with my clients a lot, too. Like share our own stories is typically what a mentor does to show you, okay, here's what I did. Maybe that will help you in your journey. And then there's consultant. I didn't even say earlier, consultant is more of like that direct advice giving, which I think you and I lean into a lot as career coaches because it's a lot of here's best practices, here's what I recommend you do versus the life coaching. Like you said, like, you're not allowed to give advice when you're in life coaching lane.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

So yeah, I've seen really good mentors and I have clients that do this, too. Like, oh, my mentor recommended I look into coaching and I had that experience as well, because a good mentor knows that they're limited and that they're going to have bias if they're in the workplace with you as well. Right. Especially if it's your boss or someone of authority that has to make tough business decisions. They're not going to be able to play that role or even have the time and space to give you as a coach.

Jaclyn:

Right? Yeah. Yeah. For you to think of your own conclusions, I am one of those where I can't stay in just a coaching lane.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes.

Jaclyn:

It's not possible for me to not give advice and little pieces of what I've learned and best practices, which is definitely why I think I straddle the two.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And it's why you're here on the podcast. That's why I invite people. It's like, let's act as these mentors, let women have 20 minutes in their commute or whatever their exercise routine, and get some mentorship because they might be craving that and not have it where they're at right now or want more. Yeah, for sure. Okay, let's move into advocate and champion. Let's explore more of what that means and looks like.

Jaclyn:

Yeah. And those to me are much more closer in concept, but also sometimes harder to find and maybe harder to ask for and seek because typically advocates do help champion normally. So, meaning that they're basically helping raise you up, they're helping put your name out there for whatever it may be and really kind of backing you up. When champions are a bit more narrow in my mind as to talking about what you've worked on, talking about your aspirations, talking about where your strengths are, etcetera. But there's not, there's never honestly a formal program for those, which is probably good because both of those roles you do want to gain more organically when coaching and mentoring programs, there's loads and loads of programs for those, some successful in my mind, some not. But advocates are a little bit more difficult to find because you can't necessarily, you can, but most people are not comfortable asking someone to be their champion, their advocate. It's a much deeper relationship. I feel it is easier for someone's leader to do that, but outside of that, it's really, really tough.

Jaclyn:

And it typically does require a higher level leadership, a more executive level leadership as well, which is really difficult for someone that's entry level or someone that's new at a company that. How do you find those people?

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And even recognizing or knowing that they're doing that work for you can be hard to identify as well. The way I define it typically is like, advocate can be just someone even in a meeting, like turning to you to give your opinion. Right. Like they're advocating for your voice to be heard, or they're saying, well, yeah, let's let Jaclyn have an opportunity here. But the champion is when the doors are closed and someone's asking internally, like, okay, do you think Jaclyn would be able to do this new opportunity? And they can have an in depth conversation and really pump you up and act with more detail. See that as a big difference between advocate and champion, would you agree?

Jaclyn:

I have seen, and sometimes the words are used the same. And there's also then the sponsor concept.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, almost between the two, essentially.

Jaclyn:

I do see advocate being used in both scenarios, but advocacy is definitely one that is known to the person. So they know that I can go to this person, this person will advocate for me, whether it's behind closed doors in evaluation meetings or when I am also there as well. One of my favorite stories is when I was working at a 95% woman company where it was sometimes really difficult to get a word in. And you're in these pretty large meetings, eight to twelve people, and only certain people are speaking up. I always took it upon myself to then target certain people where I know they would have an opinion, but they weren't necessarily going to speak over or interrupt others because sometimes that's how the meetings went. But there was one specific person where she got to the point and basically made the name for herself that she would stay quiet until someone literally said name. What do you think here? Or what is your input? Where she made herself, where people would literally advocate for her, but for her to speak. But she also knew that that time would come because of then her thoughtful insights.

Jaclyn:

So it's really interesting when we're giving space to those to really talk, ask questions, say an idea, and allowing that space to be essentially not harmful and open and not necessarily like a closed space where they're going to be judged for that.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And you mentioned levels, too. I think it's important to acknowledge, like, where advocacy and champions, those can really be at any different level. But then that word sponsor comes into, like, somebody has to be in a level of authority that can really have a voice and make decisions or influence decision makers. Right. At that certain level. But advocates and champions can also be your employees that are advocating that you get promoted or you have the opportunity to lead something, which is what we're talking about today, right. Is how can we help women get lifted up, have opportunity.

Lisa Virtue:

And so not to just think everyone I'm going to look to as a mentor, champion, et cetera, should be above me in the line, in the chart. We really need to also acknowledge that this collaborative environment that women are so good at, like, you can really embrace that with all different levels of the, which is really important, actually, to be looked at as a thought leader. And it helps you feel like you're not brown nosing or just looking up in the chart. And I think there's a lot of times women look around or there's old advice that they're like, that's what they think they should do, and then they start to build a reputation for themselves that they're an opportunist or they're only looking for those things. Right.

Jaclyn:

Yeah. And it also. But it does, however, work for yourself, too, because true leaders do bring others up. They do advocate for others. They do tell the stories of others, especially those that may be overlooked or more silent or more even introverted, because that is a difficult place for introverts. Right. Like we look at in companies, extroverts tend to get all of the spotlight and they tend to get promoted easier, let's say, only because they're more vocal or they're more vocal for others. So it's also a difficult thing just for introverts, I think.

Jaclyn:

But that also looks higher upon you because you're looking at others differently, whether it's a direct report, a peer, a cross functional business partner, even if you're on the same level of them, or even if they're a level above, because you can still advocate for a job.

Lisa Virtue:

Well done, for sure. One of the times I got a promotion and had a new team under me, so I knew them a little bit, but I wanted to go clean slate. Let's start at the beginning. And I did stay interviews with all my direct reports, and one in particular is more introverted. And she was expressing, she felt safe, which was fantastic because we knew each other enough, but she started expressing really what she would rather do in the company. And I said, oh, my gosh, let's figure that out. And it would have been a hardship for everyone on our team for her to shift. But that was one of those moments where I think I was an advocate, a champion mentor, and a little bit of a coach to help her get that opportunity and land it once I talked to the other director.

Lisa Virtue:

So that was a great example of her just going, oh, my gosh, you actually listened. But she didn't know how to advocate for those wishes she didn't have a manager above her that even understood how to do that because that manager didn't want to lose her. And so it became very interesting. So I agree with your recommendation is like, okay, when you're looking to get opportunity, how can you help others get opportunity, right? Look across the chart. Look, when you are in that new leadership position, make sure you understand and advocate for others as well. That whole pay it forward really pans out and pays off, doesn't it?

Jaclyn:

Yeah, it really does. And then just helping others grow and helping others develop also develops yourself because it again develops the leadership skills and tendencies that all executive leaders truly should have. I'm not going to say they all do, but they all should have. And that is honestly where all companies are really moving to now since growth and development of, especially entry level to middle is so focused on. But it also does take work and knowledge and experience to help others there for sure.

Lisa Virtue:

So when it comes to, like, getting heard as a woman at work, you mentioned earlier, like, advocating for others, helping them out, too.

Jaclyn:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

What other advice would you have for women? Because some people listening are also more individual contributor. They're not in a leadership role. And so of course, there's so much like, oh, you don't have to have a leadership title to be a leader. I'm sorry. I get really annoyed with that because a lot of people in those positions get annoyed where they're like, well, you're not paying me to be a leader, so I'm just going to be quiet, whatever that thing is, which we could talk about that all day long, but I digress. So talking about, like, if you want to be looked to, to have a voice and be heard, regardless of what your position or title says, what advice do you have for the listeners?

Jaclyn:

Yeah, and so I think the biggest piece of advice is, I'm gonna say two things, actually make yourself visible, and I'm gonna talk about that and ask for what you want. And that is hard. Both of them are difficult, no matter your personality, experience, how long you've been at a company. For most women specifically, both of those things are really difficult. So as far as making yourself visible, that's where your relationship with your leadership team, your direct leader and the people above them is really important. So that you are having those reoccurring meetings specifically, not just with your direct leader, with people above cross functional partners, so they understand where you're coming from, either for how you're supporting, what you're working on, how you're helping meet strategy or team goals. Also making yourself visible in team meetings, department meetings, organizational meetings, all company meetings now, not meaning you have to present at every single one, certainly don't. But making that visibility as to if someone is announced that they're getting promoted or they win some sort of organizational award, just putting in public chat, slack, whatever it may be, a congratulations towards them, maybe even just slacking them separately on the side, because people really do remember that.

Jaclyn:

And I think, just going to the second piece, asking for what you want. So being transparent with your leader now, there are cases, as you mentioned in one of your old direct reports, and I've had it as well, where it's not necessarily entertained, where you're interested in learning something new, maybe you're interested in something entirely different and might not be well received. Keep going is what my advice would be. Keep having those conversations with that person, but then with also other people, HR, other cross functional business partners, leaders, and really understanding more about maybe what they do, more about what the opportunities are, what growth and development opportunities are. If you're not a people leader, but you would really like to be a people leader, then explore that. Are there interns? Can you shadow somebody that is a new people leader? What courses can you take? Because there's lots of opportunities, but you have to dig for them oftentimes, honestly, they're not easily accessible and transparent, especially if you are not a people leader. All these things tend to be hidden until you become a people leader. And all of a sudden, oh, you have direct reports.

Jaclyn:

You're expected to understand how to manage and lead others, but you've never taken a course, you've never gotten any training, you've never been able to shadow anybody, which is a gigantic gap, in my opinion, in every company I've actually ever been at. And that's where just a few of those pieces and just asking those questions will then tell the executive leaders that you're interested in growth, you're interested in learning more now, whether it's lateral, but just understanding more parts of the business. All of those pieces make you look like a leader, and we'll just expand your experiences.

Lisa Virtue:

A couple of things I want to react to there. One is, I love what you said about, you're basically saying, like, be curious.

Jaclyn:

Yeah, right.

Lisa Virtue:

Be curious. Ask the questions. Because so often people don't. And leaders tend to get swept up in the day to day and asking you for updates or here's a, the agenda, here's a task, whatever that thing is in the meetings that they don't have the opportunity like you and I were mentioning with our stories, where you sit down and you say, like, I intentionally took an hour out of my day to talk to my direct report and say, if you could do anything here, what would it be? Now, how many leaders say that? Right? We don't see that a lot. So I recommend to everybody, like, do that for yourself. Sit down. If you don't have a leader that's doing that for you, maybe you do. If you do, like, lean and heavy, right?

Jaclyn:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Enjoy that process. But if you don't, like, as a coach, that's what I work on with my clients a lot, is getting clarity in what you really want and what speaks to you and then looking at, okay, how do I make a shift? How would I get that opportunity? Who do I need to talk to about it? So, putting those pieces in place and creating a plan can really help get you there and just at least fill that curiosity bug so you can see would you be interested in it if you got closer to it? I think when my direct report felt safe talking to me about that is because I had shifted departments completely.

Jaclyn:

Oh, interesting.

Lisa Virtue:

And she really wanted to shift apartments, but I don't think she felt safe or that it was even possible until I set the example. So for everyone out there, like, it's always possible you can shift apartments. There's so many transferable skills, and especially if you have that internal knowledge and in the company internally. Yeah. So I would say, like, that curiosity is huge, but clarity is another piece of it where if you can find that mentor, find a coach, somebody to help you uncover for you what you really like and what would fill your bucket and then being able to try it. Like you mentioned, stretch assignments. Huge. I say that all the time.

Lisa Virtue:

Like, there's so much, you know, balanced conversation out there of life and work, and so nobody wants to take on anything extra. And we see a whole push on social media of, like, don't do anything extra. They're not paying you for that. But, guys, myth bust on this. If you want opportunity, you have to have to. So we're. Yeah, we're talking to people that want that opportunity. They want to be looked to as a leader.

Lisa Virtue:

And in that case, I'm not saying bust your butt and work 100 hours a week. No way. But you do have to pick up extra here and there to show that you're capable and you can handle it once they do promote you.

Jaclyn:

And also to the leaders out there, make space for your team to do so. So otherwise, you risk losing them, period. They will leave the company. So everyone, if they're good employees, would rather their employees stay with the company and maybe move to a separate team. So allow them and give them the space to do that. It's tough. Everyone in any company, I think at this point is basically working out plus their max, not even to their max beyond it, but you have to give them that opportunity. One of the things I love doing, I coach my clients through and I also do it with my team.

Jaclyn:

I think you maybe called it a stay interview. I call it ways of working. So typically, first conversations with a new employee, a transferred employee, whatever it may be, is understanding how they like to work, what do they like doing, what are their interests, how do they like getting recognized, what is important to them. Also just some of the basics that to me are often missed, but are more of the etiquette that really should go back into some business practices. As to how do you like communicating, what are your hours, what are the holidays that you separate, that you celebrate some basic things that honestly aren't being done right now, but that also, I believe, sets you apart as a leader, whether again, you have direct employees or you don't, but you can still do that with your leadership and they can learn from you. I had an old VP who always said, and now I've taken this same methodology with me, that I hire people smarter than me because I want people smarter than me working because they're the ones that are going to figure things out and then just bringing them up. They might be missing the strategic component maybe, or there maybe haven't been people leaders before, but I want to learn from those people just like they would also learn from me. And I think that's really the mentality that leaders, no matter the level, no matter the position, really need to have 100% agree.

Lisa Virtue:

And not being afraid of their success equals you will be successful, too. I think shedding that competitive nature, that feeling of, oh, if they're better at this than me, they're going to take my job or they're going to take the opportunity. Well, heck yeah. You want that type of competition where you've got brilliant people around you, makes you look smart, too. Yeah. And then later, when there's opportunity and you're going into that interview being everybody wants to hear, by the way, this is probably really good advice, too, for anyone listening. That's like, I want to become a leader or get into a higher leadership role. You have to have stories and examples of times you have brought people with you, you've lifted them up, you're helping to mentor them.

Lisa Virtue:

And so if you're holding tight to all of that and you're resisting it, and like you said, you're not even asking those very basic questions, I would say. Right. It's like being curious about the humanity of your staff. If you're not building those relationships with people all around the chart, then it's really hard in an interview to express that and come up with specific examples, and then you will be passed up for opportunity.

Jaclyn:

And again, whether it's a people leader position or not, because at a certain level, you have to be able to lead teams, projects, strategy, and it all involves people.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. Especially even if you're not managing them.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And especially for, like, let's say, project manager.

Jaclyn:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

You're coordinating people all day. That's what you're doing.

Jaclyn:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue:

Even though no one's directly reporting to you in a lot of cases, yeah. I love it. Well, Jaclyn, our time is coming close to an end. I think this is really insightful. Any last words of wisdom or tips you wanted to make sure to share today?

Jaclyn:

Yeah. So I think, and we somewhat touched on this, that everyone needs coaches, mentors and advocates. Coaches need coaches. Mentors need mentors. So to really seek those people out, there are lots of companies that have, like, mentorship circles and things like that that aren't necessarily organic. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. But still get involved with those, as my advice would be for others, seek out people in different organizations that you've never met and just have those one on one conversations. Just learn about them, their career path, and what their business does.

Jaclyn:

Because either way, whether it leads to something or not, it still leads to you learning, which could also bring up some ahas for yourself. And then just those little tips as to how you can be seen as a leader. It's more being seen as a leader than actually leading others. And visibility and the whole executive presence and just being present in meetings and verbal or in chat in meetings really goes a huge way so that people will then, you know, look up your name. Oh, what does this person do? Oh, I might want to speak with them. I have a project coming up that I could involve them in on or whatever. And it all leads to growth.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Turn your camera on. Right. If you want to talk about being visible.

Jaclyn:

Yeah. Yeah. Now, granted, some cultures and my companies totally like this, where we all have our cameras off, totally fine. But especially in those big department meetings, team meetings, organization meetings, try to have your camera on when you can it's not always possible, but yeah, to try to have it on when you can, specifically when you're speaking, at least with your leader or any skip levels. That's really, really important to make that connection. If you're not in person, don't worry.

Lisa Virtue:

About being camera ready either is my advice.

Jaclyn:

Right. You can always blur out the background if other things are going on or if it's in different hours and evening your hours. You can always blur things in the background. So I think that's really important.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, I totally agree. Love it. Okay, Jaclyn, thank you so much for your advice. How can people get a hold of you?

Jaclyn:

Yes. So a few different ways. Have a website, uprosecoaching.com. that's also my company's name. There's lots of blogs on there with cheat sheets. Mainly focused around leadership. Again, some people leaders, but not even some of that. How to show up as a leader, building a strategic team, even project work allocation, which could work for all sorts of roles.

Jaclyn:

How to build an interview strategy, because that's really important to make candidate experience is good. I also have ways to book a consulting call with me on that website. And then I'm on two different social media platforms, LinkedIn, under my name, Jaclyn Rose. But also I have a company page, uprose coaching, and I'm on Instagram at uprose coaching.

Lisa Virtue:

Love it. Thank you so much. And thank you for your time. I think that we could, you know, talk all day about this. There's so much to unpack, but it's a good start to have people really start thinking about how they're showing up, how they can maybe activate a few new tips in their week and look for those people and be those people, those champions. And that's really, you know, we pay it forward. That's really when we get that return, isn't it?

Jaclyn:

Yep. And that's how we elevate women, too.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. Love it.

Jaclyn:

Well, thank you so much for having me, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue:

Thank you.