Lisa Virtue:

Julien, welcome. I'm so glad you were able to take the time to come talk to me today.

Julien:

Thank you very much, Lisa, for inviting me. I really appreciate the opportunity.

Lisa Virtue:

So I'm just really intrigued to hear more thoughts on what we started talking about, which is women in aviation. And you have recently written a great book about just aviation careers in general. But then I found out as we started talking that you have a wealth of knowledge about the past, about women in aviation, helping to empower them and figure out where the gaps are. And anyway, I'm so thrilled that you're here, because this is something I've always wondered about. It's one of those careers that is very male dominated, and I've always wondered, why is that? Where did that kind of start from? And is it something that is going to continue to naturally be a male dominated industry, or are there barriers that some women that are interested can overcome? So let's get started. I can't wait to hear a little bit more about your background in the space and what led you to be passionate about this.

Julien:

So I started out as a flight attendant, and as you know, again, flight attendants is also more traditionally female roles, but in recent history, it's been opened up to both male and females. And interestingly, I did a TED talk in Zimbabwe on the impact of women in aviation. And so it opened up the pandora's box, and I realized that a lot of women had made a significant impact on the history of aviation, including pilots, stunt pilots, instructors, air traffic controllers, pilot instructors. So they've really had contributed significantly to the past. So for those women that are or young girls that are looking for careers in aviation, there are plenty of role models to follow and to be a guide for. To become a guide for establishing a good career in aviation. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Cool. Okay, so you were a flight attendant. Tell me more about your path to now becoming an author and helping other people figure out career paths in aviation.

Julien:

So when I was a flight attendant, I entered the industry at a very bad time, which was right before September 11. I know. So I start. I just came out of training, and two months later, September 11 happened. And so this had a negative impact on the aviation industry at that time. And so it kind of stunted my career growth, and I explored other options, but my true passion was really aviation. And then later on, I discovered that you could actually study aviation management. And so I did.

I went to georgian college, and, you know, everybody, other people find their passion in studying medicine or law or whatever, their floats, their boat. But when I stepped into the classroom, and I saw Boeing on the air, on the front board, I was just like, this is for me. And then I realized that you could do a master's in aviation management. And so I enrolled in the master's program at Griffith University, and I learned about the income structures for legacy carriers versus low cost carriers. We did comparison models on leadership and communication styles, and we compared the leadership styles of different CEO's and how successful one style was with the other one. We also did strategic planning for different airlines and how airlines respond to changes in the market market fluctuations. And we did other things like calculating inventory. So, for an example, an airline, they calculate inventory by passenger seat miles.

How many seats are traveling, and how many miles or kilometers does that airplane travel in a week or in a month? So this is called inventory. And so then from that number, you have your total inventory that's available, and then you have your. The inventory that gets sold, and you can make profit and loss calculations based on that. But back to the question for women. In the case of pilots, approximately 94% of the pilot workforce is male. That means 6% is female. And a question often gets asked is, why is there such a discrepancy? And I don't think that the discrepancy can be pinpointed at airlines specifically because that would be discriminating gender. So that is not the case.

I think the situation is that a lot of parents will encourage their daughters to study home economics or interior design or go into an arts program rather than pursue a stem related career, which includes science, technology, engineering, and mathematic. And parents often overlook that in bringing those skill sets out in their daughters. Even though a daughter, a girl who's good at math, they could equally become an engineer or a pilot or a mechanical engineer. But the challenge is that then, yes, you are a minority in this work cohort, and many women do struggle with the gender imbalance, particularly if they have to juggle family roles and a career. So pilot career, particularly, can mean many days away from work, sorry, from home, and you're gone. Often. However, it could be in their advantage as well, because you could do a lot of hours very quickly and have more home time as well. So there's pros and cons that career and lifestyle choice.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And it's interesting for me, because when we talk about this, well, stewards, stewardesses, flight attendants, it's similar, right? Is there a difference between the pilot expectation of hours worked versus a flight attendant? Or is it a similar.

Julien:

It's a schedule.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay. Oh, Julien, I lost you. For a second. Julien, are you there?

Julien:

Yeah, I think you dropped off there. That's okay.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, you froze for a minute. Okay, so I was asking. Let me ask you a question again. Um, yeah.

Julien:

The.

Lisa Virtue:

The hours required between a flight attendant and a pilot, is there a difference, or is it a similar schedule?

Julien:

Yeah, it's a similar schedule. So the schedules. Um. So, by law, pilots and flight attendants are restricted to about 80 work hours a month. And so that boils down to about 20 hours a week that you can actually be in the air because you're in a compressurized space. It's actually not that healthy. So, basically, in a month, a pilot and a flight attendant may work around 80 hours, whereas somebody that goes to the office will work 160 hours.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay. Gotcha. And as far as the physical requirements of pilot versus flight attendant, is there a difference there?

Julien:

No, there isn't, although the airline stipulates that you have to maintain a positive health lifestyle and maintain optimum health, you know?

Lisa Virtue:

Okay. So there's no physical barriers. There's similar schedules to flight attendants. So for family life, like we were talking about, that'd be a similar situation. And so I'm also curious. This is another question I have, is, are certain airlines doing anything to try and bring up the numbers of women? I know some airlines will have pilot shortages, too, right? Is this something they're looking at?

Julien:

Yes. So lots of airlines have been very aggressive in marketing the career to women. For an example, Emirates, they market women pilots, although how effective that exactly is, I still have to see it marginally. You could get a little bit incremental numbers going up. They may offer training programs for women to become pilots. There is a woman's day in aviation where one day is set aside to honor and recognize women in aviation. And so they'll have one flight where everybody on board is. Are all female.

Female pilots, female flight attendants, female. Everybody that works on that flight would be female. And they do a big powwow around it in social media and stuff, so it's more for visibility. The airlines do do that, although I don't know if all airlines do that. Recently, I don't know if you've seen the Air Canada pilots did a strike, and they were parading forward and doing a demonstration with placards, and it was remarkable. All the pilots were dudes, and maybe two of them were female. And I don't think that's anything to do with, against the airline. It's just that women are not encouraged to pursue careers as pilots, although it's in a fantastic career and a very good one.

And if you like doing that, then it's a very good option.

Lisa Virtue:

Now, let's talk a little bit more about the requirements to become a pilot, then. So it is a stem field, right? So there's, you mentioned math and things. What are kind of the stipulations to get into a program?

Julien:

So the main barriers is that, yeah, you do need math skills. So you have to be able to calculate, you know, angle, speed and distance very quickly and be able to have an aptitude for three dimensional spaces. You do have to have meet the physical requirements. So vision, you can't be too short or you can't reach the pedals, you can't be too tall to be able to reach the overhead bins, you know, so you have to follow, within certain parameters, exactly what those are. Each airline might have their own specifications, but moreover, I think the biggest challenge is the finances. In Canada, the pilot training program costs around $80,000. And so this becomes a big financial commitment for a young person to study. And often the parents will support their, their children to study a pilot.

And often they tend to push more, the boys, thinking that they're going to have a long and fruitful career that pays well over a long time, whereas a woman may go on mat leave or may choose to stay at home. And this breaks that income potential. So there's those aspects to consider, but there's also the issue of accumulating hours. So when you start your pilot training, often you have to go to a remote location and accumulate the hours. And so this may be a disruption for people that have family commitments, you know, so it might mean having to relocate up north or in a remote area. And for people with families or, or that are already established, then that becomes challenging. Recently, I met a pilot, and he was working in Toronto, and he had his wife in Israel, and he was just doing, accumulating his hours before he would go back home to his wife and children. And so it was part of their strategic planning to get the kids.

Now, while you're young, and I'll come and join you when I've got the hours under my belt and I'm able to secure a position in Israel.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Are these unpaid hours that we're talking about?

Julien:

No, they're paid hours.

Lisa Virtue:

Oh, they are paid. Okay.

Julien:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're paid hours. So you.

Lisa Virtue:

But you can't just do it anywhere. It sounds like there's like.

Julien:

Well, you have to. It's light hours.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Julien:

Flight hours and flight hours behind the cockpit. So yeah. In order to get into that next level. So you start with a single engine and dual engine. And then, and so you build up the hours until you can fly the aircraft that you're designated for and then you go up to the next one. And the next one.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Julien:

Career. You can fly the big Airbus and the public.

Lisa Virtue:

It's so fascinating, too, because for $80,000, it's very similar to a four year degree now in a lot of colleges, especially here in the states, but it's really focused. Right. And so I think we've done a good job of just, oh, just get your bachelor's degree. You can kind of do anything with it. It's more of a generic degree. And I see maybe that's the big difference. But are there scholarships for women? Is there any incentive grants?

Julien:

There are lots of scholarships available. You'd have to google them. There are organizations, for an example, the women in aviation International. They offer scholarships if their offering is adequate enough to meet the entire need of all the women that want to study. I don't know, but there are few scholarships options available.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, that's another question I have. Of course, it'd be fascinating to know how many are applying versus how much money is given out because I know some scholarships go to the wayside and no one uses them. So I don't know if that's the case, but very interesting. So I have, you know, my cousin's daughter, she started getting some hours when she was very young, I think 16, she started flying. So I know that if this is something appealing to young girls, like you were saying, like getting into math. Right. Doing those stem classes, finding where they can start learning the different prop engines, et cetera, is really important because then once they go to that full training, they might have a lot of their hours. Right.

Julien:

Well, interestingly, is that you can actually start your, your flying lessons even without a driver's license. And when I did my research, it was recommended to start your, your flight training as early as 16, definitely by 18 or 20 if you want to become a pilot. That is the good age to get in. So the question often gets asked, is the age the problem, and when is it too old to study? And like I say, it's never too old to study or learn anything. If God gives you the opportunity to study something later on in life, knock yourself out. However, the time required to develop this type of career and in order to get the progression that you need, in order to get the leverage you need to start early. So get in your twenties, for sure. And I would say even by the time you're in your late twenties or 30, it's kind of game over to become a pilot.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. We're talking like commercial viable career pilot to get the return on your investment. Really?

Julien:

This is correct.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Julien:

And you can still become a private pilot and get your private license. But those are for, like, people that want to fly around on the weekend and go to the park.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes. I have some friends that have their fun pilot license. Yeah.

Julien:

Nice hobby to have.

Lisa Virtue:

Exactly. Yeah. One actually transports himself because he works for a state department, he has to go all over the state. And so he's picked up a pilot's license so he could do that. Yeah. Um, fantastic. So the earlier, the better on the pilot side, and especially for kids that are gravitating towards stem, would love to travel. Great opportunity because, you know, it's so interesting too.

And one of the reasons I have this big question about pilots is I've never had a female pilot in all my years of travel. Never seen one. But when it comes to firefighters or some of these other roles that tend to be heavy on male dominated, I see women all the time. And so it's just interesting, you know, to dig in and figure out where is that basis of it. I guess it makes sense too, if you need to start young and maybe you didn't have that passion when you.

Julien:

Were younger, there is a little bit of discrimination. I did hear a story where the pilot was female and she came on board Pa. Well, ladies and gentlemen, my name is Anna, and somebody, somebody flipped out. There's no way a woman is flying my airplane. And. Yeah, and so there is a little bit of stigma, although it's rare. It was just one isolated case.

Lisa Virtue:

Sure. But it could be indicative, not stereotypical.

Julien:

However, I fully agree that a woman and a male can fly an airplane. And physically there is no, no barriers. But slowly that percentage is growing. So we're slowly crawling from 6% to seven to maybe eight female pilots worldwide.

Lisa Virtue:

Wow.

Julien:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And you've raised a good point of culturally what people will accept because it is a very safety focused position. It is very. A lot of trust. And if there is a bias where people aren't trusting, it's fascinating, isn't it? Similar to.

Julien:

Yeah, so there is that. Yeah. I also watched a documentary on a female pilot in Alaska, and she was a bush pilot, and she flew on, I think, two or three airplanes there, including regular one, and ski airplanes. And that was her thing. She was just flying hunters around and campers and just fly them across the lake or over the mountains, and she would land on a little green run landing strip. So basically she's like a taxi driver for these sightseers. And so it's, she loved her job and you could see the passion that she had for flying. But it's non commercial.

It's in the, the rural area.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Julien:

So even though it's an option for people, but it's a lifestyle choice. Definitely.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. If you want to stay closer to home or have a smaller craft. Yeah. Interesting you said that, because I just saw, I think over this past weekend, a preview of a movie, Amazon prime or something, that was about a female bush pilot and in more of a caribbean setting. And I just thought, ah, this is, you know, celebrities help us normalize things. Right. One of those, if Hollywood could help, maybe this is one way too, to get something out there about a commercial female pilot. I don't think I've ever seen that on a movie.

So that would be interesting to see something like that.

Julien:

Yeah, that does play a role. The movies and the media has stereotyped pilots as male pilots, but definitely the occupation is open for male and female. So when I did my thesis, it was on the global pilot supply and demand. And I came to realize that in Canada, we're seeing a pilot shortage because the wages here in the beginning are lower. And I, the industry is growing more rapidly in other regions of the world. For an example, Asia and the Middle east. So in the Middle east, as you know, they have, the most wealthiest countries are there. And so all they need to do is just raise that wage up a little bit.

And people that don't have any family commitments and are not screwed to the ground anywhere, they will apply and they'll just go over there, which leaves a gap in the workforce. And so as a result of the study, it was recommended that Canada may have to look to import band train pilots from overseas, and they would have to strongly look at the female sector to fill in the role because they're just not able to recruit enough men, pilots into these roles. And so we're talking about Gen Z, young kids in their early twenties and exposed them to the idea of becoming a pilot and facilitating that journey through awareness, career awareness, funding and documentation. And they may have to bring in people from overseas to study to become a pilot here. And then that they stay here because there is that option or that possibility that they come and get trained in Canada, and as soon as they get their certification off, they go back home for the better wages. And so it's not just about training pilots, it's retaining them so that they stay to work for us. Last season, I think it was one of the airlines had to cancel all their flights out of Saskatoon down to the Caribbean just because of pilot shortage. And so the canadian public suffer because the airlines aren't just able to get the manpower that they need to fly the airplane.

Lisa Virtue:

Right. And one of the reasons why, besides just interest in travel that people have, especially when they were locked down for a few years and then itching to get out again, part of it, too, is that planes are more efficient. Right, with, so they're not as heavy. And so now the cost to fly for airlines, did you do studies on that, too?

Julien:

Yes. Yeah. So the, so traditionally, airplanes were made of steel, and now they're made out of carbon fiber and composite materials. So in all, the aircraft has become more economic. And you can manipulate the seating pitch and ergonomic design of the aircraft is more streamlined with the winglets, so therefore there's less drag. And so these variables do impact the efficiency of the airline, of the aircraft, I should say. And therefore, it does reduce the cost. And then when you do reduce the cost, then demand will go up, you know, and so more aircrafts are being built at with this material, and people do like to fly.

So the aviation industry has hit a critical mass, and now with the introduction of low cost carriers and the elimination of a lot of travel documentation and the global unification, as well as countries that create alliances for travel. So the elimination of passports and vaccinations, it makes travel, international travel much more easier. And so people will buy airfares, but then airlines will sell the airfares, but then the question is now, how can you find that manpower to make that flight happen? And so they may be able to do it on a short term, but to train upon it, it takes at least so many years before to get a pilot to come up through the ranks in order to actually be able to fly, let's say, at 737. So you have to start that training much earlier. Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Well, I would love to encourage listeners, it sounds like there's a few things going on. One is probably just like anything that has something dominated by one gender to bring in the opposite gender can be tough, right? So same with the experience of flight attendants allowing men in and nurses, you know, all these different stigmas that were female dominated, bringing men in. It's, there's a shift there in a cultural shift. And so it sounds like internally there's some work to be done. I'm sure. I'm sure there's diversity, equity, and inclusion all going on with that part. But then to encourage our young people, if they're showing an interest in this field, it can be a really great option.

And there might even be funding out there to help them get the education, the hours. Yeah, yeah. I would love to encourage the listeners, like, if you hear, you know, your daughter or someone else's daughter talking about career paths, this could be one to really explore and normalize it for girls, right?

Julien:

Yeah. There's lots of videos on YouTube that I enjoy watching myself. And then you see two female pilots for air lingus or emirates, and they're gonna pull makeup on and the red nails and pull them back on the.

Lisa Virtue:

Throttle, living their fabulous life.

Julien:

Yeah, I know they're jet setting, and they're gonna go to Singapore and buy clothes, and then they're gonna go to Paris and buy clothes and go to Milan and buy more clothes, you know? Well, it's what they do. So it's a little bit what. That's what they glamorize in the video, of course. But realistically, it's a pilot is. It's a lot of studying, and you have to be smart. You have to be a stem career, and you have to. It's a lot of safety involved, so you have to do your pre flight checks and follow your procedures. So it's.

It's a big career.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, I would think there might be, you know, software engineering was the hot ticket, and a lot of girls getting scholarships, doing great things in technology, but with all the layoffs in tech, too, be fascinating to see if any of them would be interested in something like this. So girls sometimes in some countries, score higher than men on Stem. You know, it's fascinating, but then the opportunities for the jobs just tend to be different later on, so.

Julien:

Yeah, yeah. I've heard in the states they even did recruitment for girls. So they would fly them in on a little airplane, and they take them to this base somewhere in Texas, I don't know. And they would have flight simulators set up and little air traffic control stations. And, you know, these 14, 1516 year old girls would just run around and tinker with these, interact with these little games. And so it's trying to expose them to basic pilot concepts and aviation concepts just to give them a little bit of an intrigue. And so this is where they get that interest. Also Naads, the national air traffic control in the UK.

They also do bring your daughter to work or your children to work day, and they do a campaign around that and they get, it's a whole day excursion and they get a t shirt and pizza and they can go look at the air traffic control tower. And so it's an opportunity for people to expose their daughters to the air traffic control.

Lisa Virtue:

Cool. I love it. Yeah, I was just thinking that, you know, we do a really good job even around my area of, like at the science museum, showing all of the different things to go to outer space and being an astronaut. And I wonder if the percentage of female astronauts is actually higher than the percentage of female pilots.

Julien:

I don't know. You'd have to do statistics.

Lisa Virtue:

I would have to look it up. But, yeah, it's another curiosity piece for me. So did a really good job of getting some equality there, but, yeah, fascinating. Well, Julien, thank you so much for coming and talking to me. And so your book covers more than just pilots, right? Careers in aviation in general. So why don't you tell us a little bit more about your book and if people are interested just in general and aviation careers, what that looks like.

Julien:

Well, based on my thesis, I came to realize that there was a pilot shortage, or potential pilot shortage in Canada. And I understood now the reasons why and it has to do with the global trends and how the industry is evolving in other regions of the world. And so I came to realize that there needs to be the first book that a Gen Z could read. So that's kids between twelve and 28. You know, you're just coming out of high school, you're open to exploring careers. And so this book briefly touches on the history of aviation and the big milestones that we've covered over the last ten years. And then in chapter two, we touch on where the global aviation is now. So in terms of passenger capacity, aircraft in the air, the total volume for the globe.

And so then you quickly realize that the aviation industry is not just a small thing, it's a big industry, and it represents almost 3.5% of the GDP. And then we look into the challenges that airports face and the challenges that airlines face. And so once you figure that out, then you're like, okay, so this is the problem. Then this is the solution that the next generation needs to find a solution to. And then I split that into four groupings, pilot, air traffic control, aircraft engineering and aviation management, which is my area of expertise. Aviation management, that's for, that's to become an airline or an airport manager. So that is the business side of that. And so we briefly discover or discuss in each of those chapters what you need to study where the jobs are, who's hiring, what are the soft skills and hard skills that you need in order to be successful in that career? And then the last chapter is on resume writing and networking and interview skills.

Lisa Virtue:

Great. Love it. How can people find your book?

Julien:

Well, it's available on Amazon. It's available in digital copy and in soft copy.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay, wonderful. I'll put the link, of course, in the show notes. So.

Julien:

Thank you.

Lisa Virtue:

Brilliant. Julien, is there any last bit of advice for aspiring female aviation career? Professional women?

Julien:

Yeah. The sky is just the limit. It's only the beginning. There's so many experiences out there. It's just your life and live it up. And aviation has a lot of good careers to offer, and it's a good camaraderie. It's a great way to see the world. It's an industry that is globally integrated, interconnected, and lots of languages.

Great people to meet and very progressive. Also, it's an industry that's very environmentally progressive, aware of the environment. So it's got a lot of aspects of the industry that many young people are looking for. And there are good wages to be had, too, so that's not to be overlooked.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Brilliant. I love it. And it's so interesting, the environmental part, because I know that was. It's been a huge thing on everyone's mind, which is another reason why the efficiency of the airplanes, it's been really pushed, too. Yeah. Love it. Well, hopefully some people will pass on the book to people that they are hearing are interested.

I know. You know, everyone loves to travel now, especially younger people. And when they're not tied down with a family, like you mentioned, which sounds like the best time to get into this career. So. Love it. Thank you for being here.

Julien:

Thank you so much for inviting me, Lisa. It's a pleasure.