Lisa Virtue:

All right. I'm so excited to talk to you, Desiree, today, because we connected around this world of supporting women and in particular mamas in the workforce and careers. And I think it was a LinkedIn post that I saw of you, and then we connected on Instagram and just love everything about your vibe and what you're doing. And so I'm so thrilled that you agreed to come chat with me because.

Desiree DeLattre:

I'm honored that you reached out.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Sometimes we just need to hear that we're not alone. Right. And there's also just this element of, I've had other guests, too, that we're talking about it where it's. It used to be, especially here in the US, like, oh, you'll figure it out. You'll have a kid and you'll figure it out. Oh, don't worry. Everything will come together.

And it was just such a disservice, in my personal opinion, to new moms and women that are navigating all the complexities of being a woman, especially in the workplace. And, you know, this is all new for us. Even having credit cards is new culturally. Like, it was only in the seventies, right. That we were allowed to have credit cards. We just said this yesterday with another guest. We couldn't even buy diapers or formula for our babies without having a male figure in our life to help support that, right. Until just last generation.

So it's just nutty, but.

Desiree DeLattre:

And now they want us to figure it all out.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. So let's. Let's do this together today. Let's impart some wisdom, some learning, some things that we, hopefully other women that are just entering this or thinking about having a child, or even advocates of moms at work that are listening, like, what is it that they can have as takeaways? But I'm so excited to get your advice, too. And you've had so many great experiences when it comes to this and learnings yourself. So let's start with your career and anything you want to share around the mom journey as well. When it comes to that career. How did you end up where you were at today? Yes.

Desiree DeLattre:

What a loaded question. So I think I'm humbled to be here because unlike so many of your other guests, like, I think society would paint me as a failure. I'm a mom who has failed to. You have so many experts who have it figured out. They know where they're supposed to be, and they're there and they're doing it. And they have all of this wisdom to bestow upon other moms of, like, I am the success story, and here's how you can get on this path to this success. I am in the middle of the storm, and I am still figuring it out. And I think the reason why I feel that I can help other moms is because sometimes you just need somebody to sit in the dirt with you and say, look, I don't have it all together.

But here's why I'm really hopeful, and here's what I'm doing to dig myself out. So I'll start there and just say that right now, I'm a mom of two toddlers, and I had a really rough go with both my children as newborns, but most recently my son, who's now a year old, born with a lot of complications in terms of feeding, and kind of that whole. That whole journey of feeding is wild, right?

Lisa Virtue:

Oh, my gosh. I have another episode. It's out. You should totally listen to it. One of my friends wrote a book about all that.

Desiree DeLattre:

Oh, my gosh. You totally could. Several books. My God. But, you know, you have a plan for how you're going to feed, and that goes, am I allowed to cuss on here?

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, you can.

Desiree DeLattre:

That goes to shit. Yep. And then you're like, okay, well, that's fine. This is 2024. Here's plan B. You don't expect plan B to also go to shit. Like, I can't choose the way I want to feed my son. And the options that are available also aren't working.

He had severe reflux. We were in and out of the hospital, and no matter what we would do, he just wasn't getting better. He was getting worse. And so we're navigating all of this during my maternity leave, of course, because I live in the wonderful state of California, where we have action to paid leave. But, you know, coming in on the end of my maternity leave and out of the hospital with my son for another round of figuring out what was going on, I get a Zoom meeting put on my calendar. And at the time, I worked in brand marketing, so leading rebrands, helping with content creation, content strategy, those sorts of things. And I jump into this Zoom meeting, and I'm informed that I'm being affected in the layoff. Mind you, this is two days before I'm supposed to return to work.

I've walked down the nanny, a specialized nanny that will care for my son in a different way than most nannies would. She was aware of his medical stuff. She was a midwife in Doula, so she really cared for me as well. I had it figured out, I thought, and I was so ready to go back to a familiar setting, of being productive, of feeling out of this hole and cycle of I am failing my son and myself over and over again. I can't wait to get back to something I'm good at. And then to be told, you're actually going to be stuck in this for a lot longer than you think. It was brutal. And of course, coming off of that call, you question your value, your worth.

But something didn't sit right for me. And maybe it was just the denial of, like, oh, my gosh, I'm never getting out of this trap. But I. Without saying too much, because legally I can't, I learned a lot of things from that layoff that would really set the direction for what I believe to be the path that I'm supposed to be on, a path that wasn't laid out for me. It's a path that I've had to carve myself. But what I do know to be true is how to handle the situation. I think the way that I was able to navigate it is something that's invaluable to moms who are in this position. And then also how to take failure and make it into something that works for you to find creativity and light and joy and failure, and to tie your failures that you feel as a mom to the failures you might feel at work.

How do you take this, like, heaviness and creatively pull something good out of it? So that's what I'm here to share today. And, yeah, I mean, that was a long winded way of going about it, but here we are.

Lisa Virtue:

No, thank you, Desiree. Well, it just reminds the listeners of why you are an expert in this and, you know, you say failure, and I would say probably all my guests feel that same way.

Desiree DeLattre:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

Because there's some spark, some moment that created angst and frustration or trigger, which got them into the work that they do now or the advice that they give now. So I personally don't see failure as a definer for you, although I do think we all fail. Right. And it's how we navigate that and pick ourselves up that makes such a difference. But I'm curious. So when you say fail, tell me a little bit more about why that word keeps coming up for you and where it's coming from.

Desiree DeLattre:

I think we hear that both as mothers and just people, and we get this bristle reaction, like, either you kind of relate to that, but you're afraid to, or that just sounds like a scary word that you should avoid holding close to your identity at all costs. But like you said, with your other guests, like, failure really helps catapult you to a place of peace, of curiosity, of improvement. And I've really taken that word and made it part of my identity because of the beautiful chaos that I live in now. I was such a type a person that had to have a plan and a backup plan and a second backup plan for everything and wanted control over my life, my career, my kids, everything. And embracing failure has been a teacher to me in that it's all a sham. You don't have control over anything. So if you make friends with failure and actually look at it as a part of life, as a part of your journey, you learn to have this really great relationship with it, of failure being a gift to get creative and find out what you're really made of.

Lisa Virtue:

I love that perspective. It's so powerful. And to your point, too, it can help us keep moving forward, find those points of interest that will help us in our journey. I agree 100%. And what a freedom when we let it. Let it come to us and know that it's going to keep coming to us and we don't need to hold on so tight.

Desiree DeLattre:

Sure. Yes. And I had even written in my journal at one point when we were really going through it, surrender. And I just, like, underlined it a million times. Like, just let all the shit happen and then decide what you're going to do with it, rather than spinning in the moment of what if. Like, we get so trapped in the what if versus now what this happened, now what. And I think that's a really healthy place to be versus what if.

Lisa Virtue:

I completely agree. You know, it's funny, too, the other thing that I wanted to respond to, what you were saying was when you became a mom, now, all of a sudden, embracing that chaos and living in that moment, I can totally relate, because when I went back to work, we were doing some personality assessments and team bonding on the team I was on. And my. I had, right before getting pregnant and having my daughter, we had done similar work on a different team. So I came back, I'm on, you know, first year of my daughter's life, back into work. I had just been promoted right before I went on maternity leave. So, so many changes. And my Myers Briggs assessment shifted completely for one of the letters.

And I talked to our HR rep, who was helping us facilitate this, and I said, is this normal? I thought these were pretty, like, baseline of your personality. Right. Is it normal to see such a shift within a year or two, I think it was two years maybe that happened. And he said, well, let me ask you questions. So he started asking me what had shifted was that control versus allowing chaos in my world. Right. And it was so fascinating because I said, oh, yeah. He goes, well, does it feel like there's a lot more out of your control and you're kind of more at peace with that and being a mom and also going into a higher leadership role? You know, people don't realize they want to go into leadership to have more control or to be a parent, to have control.

Create your family. It's actually the opposite, isn't it? You lose so much control in both of those worlds. Leadership and having children.

Desiree DeLattre:

I. Yes, totally see that. Not to mention the actual, like, physical brain shifts that you go through in motherhood. Like, your brain actually changing. Not just for moms, either.

Lisa Virtue:

Fathers, too, but anyone, actually, any caregiver. Right. When you have that responsibility level. Yeah, yeah.

Desiree DeLattre:

So I could totally see, like, all of those things that Enneagram and all of those little tests, like, yeah, they fit you at one point in your life, but, like, it's awesome to go back to those and just see how much you've changed.

Lisa Virtue:

Right. And letting yourself evolve and being comfortable with that. Like, that's something. That's another control piece. Right. Like, but I'm this person. Where's that person? It's really hard for, I would say, especially mothers when you're going through physical changes as well. Oh, my gosh, that's a whole nother episode.

Talk about body comfort. Right? But all those things and feeding your child, what a fundamental challenge that you went through because it's so just basic. To sustain your child's life is to be able to feed them and nourish them and challenge.

Desiree DeLattre:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. I. I remember, like, some nights we would have to get so creative with it, of, okay, my baby refuses to eat this bottle, but if I stand up in the dark with the sound machine on with him facing outwards and feed him like that, like, literally him facing outwards, wow, he'll take it. And that worked for, like, a month, and then it was on to, like, the next bag of tricks. So. Wow, you can never get comfortable as a mom.

Lisa Virtue:

No, they have ways.

Desiree DeLattre:

That's so true. Thank you.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay, I know you came today to wanting to talk a little bit about advice around maternity leave, what your rights are, those kinds of things. And I know you are in California, which is one of the. I used to be a leader in California for teams. So I understand the difference of how stringent it can be as well. So feel free to speak to California law, but I think there's some basis here of people listening from anywhere where they can go to find their rights and some of the fundamentals. Right?

Desiree DeLattre:

For sure. I mean, Google is going to be your friend to a point. There are certain things that you can find out on your government website, but who understands any of that crap? So for me, as a not lawyer person, just a regular mom, not a cool mom, I have figured out that there are some things that you do have control over. If you are affected in a layoff, I like to call it hacking the system, because there are so many factors at play, so many levers you can pull if you lose your job while pregnant or postpartum. So I'm happy to go through those if you're ready.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, let's do it.

Desiree DeLattre:

Okay, so say you're in the scenario. You get invited to that Zoom call or pull them to an office, and you know exactly what's going to happen. The first thing you want to start doing is, of course, taking notes. Write down everything that said, whether you think it's going to be useful or not. Sometimes just having notes to remind you of certain points in the conversation is helpful. Say very little during that meeting, but I think it's fair to ask why me? To get clarity for yourself to also maybe have that kind of note in the future to help you out. But I think it is valid to ask, why was I included in this decision? What were the contributing factors? A lot of times, especially in a layoff, they will say had nothing to do with you. It was, you know, the needs of the company.

It was the state of the business. It was the department being eliminated. And that's okay. You don't need to argue with that, but just make note of it. Number two, they're going to ask you to sign some sort of agreement. Don't sign it. You have time. Nobody is going to keep you from leaving that room or that Zoom call.

You have time. The moment you get that agreement, you have some power. And there are two things that you can do with that. Look at that deadline. If it's written on the agreement, say it's a severance agreement or termination agreement, whatever. Take a beat. First of all, don't make any decisions based on how you're feeling emotionally. Ask if you can have a few days, a week, maybe two weeks to just sit with this.

And the reason why I'm saying, this is one, because emotions are very real, but two, you need some time to plan your next steps very thoughtfully. So take that agreement, read over it several times. What are they offering you? What are they asking of you? What are you signing away? And plan number three, and this is why you don't want to sign anything yet, is that typically a severance agreement or termination agreement is negotiable. You can ask for severance if you haven't been offered any, or you can ask for more severance. They usually offer you something low planning for you to come back and negotiate. Most people don't. They feel embarrassed. They feel ashamed.

They feel like their worth has been flushed down the toilet. So they don't know that they can ask or deserve more. You can and you do, especially if you're a new mom. Especially if you haven't been interviewing and having something lined up. It is hard to be a new mom and looking for a job. Both of those things are full time jobs. You cannot do both very well. It will burn the hell out of you.

So ask for what you really need and then a little bit more on top of that, we'll call that mom tax. And think about, like, your child care options. You're likely going to have to be doing interviews. You're likely going to have to be getting your resume together and all that without childcare, that's a lot of burden on you. So if you're going to need to hire help, you're going to need some cushion to be able to do that. Number four is contacting an attorney. And that sounds so aggressive. I know you're not going to l woods the shit out of your old company.

This is really for some guidance, and that's what attorneys are there for, is to let you know whether you have a shot at, you know, getting more of what you deserve from that company. They will help you know whether your rights were violated or not, and they'll point you in the right direction. And I think most of the attorneys that I know are very honest people. They will not take on your case if they think they're going to fail. So try to find an attorney that will work in a structure where nothing is owed to them until you've won your case. I think that's your best bet. And I think a lot of attorneys, especially employment attorneys, work in this way. And even if you've been offered severance, you still should meet with an attorney to say, is this right? They're offering me this, but I feel weird about what just happened.

I feel like this wasn't handled right. Do you think it's worth pursuing? And they will tell you from there, really follow your attorney's guidance. But then on the other side of things, I would schedule an appointment with your Ob gyn or psychiatrist as soon as possible because you can have access, at least in California. Check your state regulations, but for more paid short term disability. If you are diagnosed with postpartum anxiety or depression, if you've just lost your job as a new mom and you do not have postpartum anxiety or depression, you are a superhero. But being diagnosed with those things, I think some moms are so afraid of getting that. Like it's going to be on our report card and follow us or something. No, it's going to benefit you in getting more money for a longer period of time, in addition to unemployment that you might otherwise not have access to.

So take advantage of the systems that you've been paying into this whole time and use them to your advantage while you're in a tough spot. So talk to your b, let them know what happened, let them know how you're feeling. And they are usually very on board with supporting moms. That's usually why they've chosen the job that they have. Then, when you're ready, this is my final tip. You're ready to get back to work. You're ready to get on the job hunt. You can really broaden your opportunities by joining support groups.

Facebook's an amazing place. I found so many support groups, not only for careers, but also for, you know, the health conditions that were pretty rare that my son had networking with people there. It's an odd place. You wouldn't think about it, but, you know, people go through struggles, and sometimes those people happen to be in a similar line of business. There are some wonderful groups on LinkedIn for moms experiencing job loss. And I getting loud on LinkedIn, not necessarily slamming your old company, but if you have an opinion or a passion or a particular skill, start showing up in conversations. It doesn't have to be perfect, it doesn't have to be super polished, but having an opinion, getting your voice out there, exactly how I met you. People take notice and you can start to stand out in the crowd and really use the algorithm to your advantage here.

So I think building a community around yourself, too, whether it be on LinkedIn or social or even in person, if you can find a support group that can relate to what you're going through. Community is everything for moms. I think it's something that, you know, in America we don't get enough of. We've kind of put the need for community on the back burner. But motherhood shouldn't be isolating. It shouldn't be lonely. And when you've lost kind of the only community, we're, like, given pride for our jobs, you know, like, you need to build that community around you and fill your space with people who are going to help you get through this really rough time. So whether that's a group of, like, a therapist, a career coach, a friend, a family member, just build your circle in a way that feels really comforting to you in that moment and shed the rest for a little bit of, like, you don't need to be in that one mom group that just makes you feel less than like.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, thank you. I was going to say, when I first became a mom, I was like, I don't like these mom groups. And then I gave it a shot again years later, and I was like, oh, now I found a fabulous one. So, to your point, like, you do have to find the right fit. And I think niche. Yeah. And the more niche you can get, like you were saying, there's, you know, support groups for your sons and challenges, and it might be that the job is number one priority so you can have those resources for your family. So having a career group or something around that and really knowing what you need at the moment, for sure.

Yeah.

Desiree DeLattre:

Yes. And then there's folks like you who are out there help new moms. And I think reaching out and just saying, like, this happened, I don't know where to go from here. Like, what would you recommend in terms of groups I should join or people I should know or follow? Like, just getting into that bubble of, like, there is so much happening, there is so much opportunity in this area. There are so many resources. You just haven't arrived there yet. So maybe your LinkedIn algorithm hasn't recognized that. Or maybe it's just, you know, you've had stability for so long, you haven't had to get creative in this way yet.

And there's so much power in this moment to really design your circle like we were talking about, but also what your career path is going to look like from here on out. But it can be a very emotional experience at the same time, and I don't want to diminish that.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Two things that you said that really resonate with me. One is slide into DM's.

Desiree DeLattre:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

There's so much power in that, and people just avoid it because a lot of reasons, embarrassment, thinking they won't get a response, right? So you're not going to get a response if you don't send a message. So you're going to be back where you started.

Desiree DeLattre:

And what do you have to lose? You know, like, the number of rejections I've gotten, failures, it's just like, that is one less door I have in this room, you know, like, I've just got to find the one or make the one that I'm going to bust open myself. But I really think that, you know, we are so adverse to rejection on top of experiencing job loss. It's really, like, time to dig in and say, nobody's going to fight for me, so I've got to do this myself. And I think when you're a mom and you're naturally, like, kind of an advocate for yourself in a new way, you realize, like, pride just, like, kind of goes out the door for a minute. You're in survival mode. Do the next right thing. And I think that goes with finding a job, too. Just take that next right, Stephanie?

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And people like you and I, we will respond. Right? We'll respond to those DM's, those messages. There is support out there. Can't tell you how many times women have sent me a message on LinkedIn. Just a quick, hey, can you help me with something? And sometimes that's all they need, just to be unblocked on one simple thing. And it's fantastic to feel. I love it.

Like, look, I can help you. People are worried, oh, I have to pay this person for advice. Sometimes no. Sometimes yes. But I'll tell you that if it breaches into something that's more of a client engagement, but typically, it's just like you're saying, like, a quick unblocked. Or resources that we need. So, yeah, for sure. The other thing that I was thinking about when you were talking about these groups and showing up as a community is literally show up.

This is my big advice for people. Same with even my clients. Right? There's weeks that maybe they're down or they did get that rejection. They're feeling like a failure. That's usually the time you need it the most, and it's the hardest to show up. Right. So I would offer that to, like, just show up, because I just had a client in my group sessions the other day. She was like, okay, you guys have to be really honest with you.

My husband actually signed me up for this. She was just very down. Very pulled down. Mama, that was career transition. Unemployed. Won't get a response on her materials um, because she shared with us and she was vulnerable quickly. We all unlocked resources for her, and within a week, her energy was 180 degrees. Right.

Just completely different person showing up on the calls, and now she's moving forward, and so beautiful things can happen when we're vulnerable and we ask for help.

Desiree DeLattre:

Well, that's the thing, too. Like I mentioned at the beginning, like, we feel so down in those moments, because all we hear is these success stories. We don't really hear about that tough time in the middle, and we don't really meet people who are comfortable enough to talk about that messy middle. Like, nobody's story is ever finished. And I think that's important for moms to know is that even if you don't have the job yet, like, take what you can from this and use that to do that next right thing. And I think, you know, looking back on my career hunt, you know, right now I'm freelance consulting, coming into a full time role that I could have never picked for myself. But here I am, so excited. Yes, it is exciting, but I don't think I would have landed here with this opportunity to really, like, design this new phase of my career had I not gone through that messy middle and been so open about it.

And I'll give a little bit of more context, so it's not a big mystery. But for me, I was very determined to get into the baby parenting postpartum space. That's what I've had my eye on, and I've done some work in that space. So I was knocking on every door. I have some powerful connections, and I thought, I have got it. You know, like, I can use these tools, and I'm just going to get a job and no big deal. And here I am, and I would get ghosted or, you know, rejected for whatever reason, or, you know, it would just. There would be some sort of blocker.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Desiree DeLattre:

And then I thought, maybe I'm just not meant to be in this space. And I started using kind of the conversations I had had, the issues I had faced during that process, that feeling of rejection, feeling of not belonging to really think about, well, if I'm feeling this way, that means other moms are feeling this way. What could I do to solve that problem? And because I have a lot of things. Oh, I'm sorry for the. For the ping there, because I have a lot of things that are in development in the moment. I can't say too much, but what I can say is what I am working on creating is filling such an essential need that I see right now for moms going through the postpartum phase, and we have a killer advisor. And the door is not only open, it's the door that I built that I use my community to actually put together to shove open. And I'm just really excited to see what's next.

But again, I just. I just don't think a no is really a no. It's just not your yes.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Redirection, for sure.

Desiree DeLattre:

Exactly. Exactly. So, yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

So exciting. Well, I would love for the listeners to know how to follow your journey, and then when you can announce the excitement of what you're working on, how they can stay informed. So how can people follow you and stay informed?

Desiree DeLattre:

So you can find me on instagram at Momkind co. Momkind is one word, and right there, I'm really just focused on building community. So really relating to other moms in all phases and finding solidarity, humor, even, and tips that I have gathered on my journey as being a mom. And as I build that community, that's going to lead into a very intentional strategy in the future. So have to follow me there to learn more about when and what that will be.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. Well, I'm definitely following you. I love your instagram. I think any mom should follow you. Yeah. Yeah. It's so great. Anything, you know, anyone that I get to talk to, this lights my soul.

Right? That's helping women and sharing their wisdom, so. Especially their story. So, Desiree, thank you so much for being here today. And I. Sounds like your baby boy stayed asleep this whole time.

Desiree DeLattre:

Hi, Karen. He's like, you're done, right?

Lisa Virtue:

Where are you, Mama? Good. That's great. I can't hear him at all. So well done with your microphone. Although, like I told you earlier, if he shows up, great. You know, our listeners don't mind at all. And I welcome all the children. I was that person that let them come to my wedding.

Why would I not let them? Children are welcome.

Desiree DeLattre:

Love that.

Lisa Virtue:

Love that.

Desiree DeLattre:

Okay, well, thank you so much, Lisa. It's an honor again.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, thank you, Desiree. We look forward to your updates, for sure.