Lisa Virtue:

Kathryn, welcome. I am so thrilled to have this conversation with you because it's going to be a good one, rich and full of context, as we know from just the few conversations we've already had. So welcome. Thank you so much for being here.

Kathryn Preston:

Thank you so much, Lisa. I've really been looking forward to this time together.

Lisa Virtue:

Me, too. This is an example of women truly supporting one another, isn't it? This is what we connected originally on LinkedIn was you had posted something about women supporting women, and I've posted that way about we can't take it for granted because unfortunately, as you and I have shared with each other and we've heard from so many other women, that there's so many examples of women either competing against each other, tearing them down, or just that feeling of competition in the workplace. Sometimes I call it Queen Bee syndrome, right, where woman rises to the top and then she doesn't want any other women to follow or whatever's going on. Or maybe it's just perceived, but there's something there that we've been talking about that these catchphrases and these memes and these images out there on social women supporting women, and people, you know, especially in March, tend to post a lot about women's history month. And I love supporting women. But then, behind closed doors or actually in the workplace, are they gossiping about each other? Are they actually supporting each other? What are they doing, from a practical standpoint, to support each other? So I'm excited to dig into that. But before we do, why don't you tell us a little bit more about you and your background and your career?

Kathryn Preston:

Sure. So I have quite a hodgepodge of a career history in that my studies and degrees are actually in a whole bunch of different things. So in college, I studied Spanish, and I spent some time learning shoe design and things like that. And then eventually I went to dental school and became an orthodontist. But my practice has been very different than what you would consider the traditional orthodontic practice, where I've only ever worked in hospitals and universities. I've done a subspecialty fellowship to be able to focus the care that I provided on patients with clefts and craniofacial differences syndromes and special needs. So it's different than a brick and mortar practice where you would go and ask for braces or aligners or something like that. My care has always just been very specific to a specific population and other services around their medical care that they might need.

So that's been a really wonderful part of my career history and took me around the world speaking and teaching. And I taught full time for a few years as well for the dental students, medical students, fellows, residents. I just love teaching. So that naturally progressed into me leaving my hospital positions behind last year and starting an online education company for healthcare providers. So I know what we aren't taught essentially throughout school. A lot of it is in business and perhaps even some of the niche clinical skills. And so it's really been my mission to bring more of those resources to other healthcare providers. So that was a company that I started called bite size a few months ago even.

And it's just been a wild ride, learning so much, really enjoying that. And my whole career really has been the culmination of so many experiences. And we connected not over that education platform that I'm creating, but more along the lines of how exactly, like you said, how do women define the experience for other women in the workplace? And that has actually become a big topic for me to speak on and work with teams. So now, aside from my online education company, I spend a lot of time speaking with teams and organizations about how to truly make companies and organizations more inclusive for women as well as beyond women for diverse audiences. I speak with them about communicating with confidence and how to create more inclusive and optimized team dynamics. So my. Like I said, my career history has. Has been a Hodgepodge of a lot of different things, but ultimately, I think it's really been in service of what I'm doing now.

I just. I enjoy it so much. I find a lot of meaning in it, and they're all issues that. That. That I think we resonate with both of us, as well as many other people as well.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Very much transcends industry, doesn't it?

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Even in very. It could be very male dominated or very female dominated. Doesn't matter. It's just men and women working together. But we're gonna talk about women working with women today. So how did that start to be a passion for you? What was your personal experience around this topic?

Kathryn Preston:

So, the women, the dynamics between women, that issue, I think, has always been at the center of a lot of my workplace experiences over the years, education as well, not just workplace, but I think we all find ourselves a little bit perplexed by this general narrative that we always heard, which is women support women. So, of course, when you're coming up through the ranks, whether in school or in the workplace, that, of course, is what you're expecting to experience. And you sign on, you sign up for that. You know, we're on board for that. But I've been very surprised to find that that's not necessarily my experience as well as the experience of other women that I've spoken with now. That's not to take away from the wonderful experiences and female mentors that I have had. So I certainly want to give credit to that. And great relationships between women do still exist, but we do tend to lean towards this blanket statement of women support women, and then there's no other part of that conversation which really ignores a lot of women's lived experiences where there are unhealthy dynamics between women.

Like you said, there is competition when there really doesn't need to be, and a lot of indirect or undercurrents of toxic dynamics that I think are counterproductive in our efforts towards creating inclusive work cultures, advancing women's issues overall, creating equal pay, you know, all the things that we say we are advocating for, but we're really pointing the finger outwardly towards men and society's biases, gender biases and things like that. But we really need to recognize that we still have some work to do within our group to make that truly a reality for women as a whole.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, I think it's important to note that this conversation is by no means taking away from all those other issues, but it's really just highlighting, like, there is also this issue.

Kathryn Preston:

Exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

And it's this type of issue that is not talked about enough, in my opinion. That's what I hear from just people on social and people I meet with and people I work with constantly, they're like, oh, I've got stories for you if this topic comes up. But have they ever told those stories? Nope.

Kathryn Preston:

I think it's a great point that you raised, because even in the, how we got connected was over LinkedIn. And the talk that I gave recently for women in tech, when I was sharing the information about this talk with other women, you never really know where it's going to land, I suppose when you say, well, I'm talking about women bullying other women, essentially.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Kathryn Preston:

And, you know, it's very counter to the narrative that we always hear of women supporting women. And because you never hear other women really openly talking about it, it's like, oh, gosh, am I going to really be digging myself into a deeper hole with this one? But I do feel like it's, it's an issue that we do need to give more attention to. So what's interesting, though, is when I did start to share information about this talk it came back to me as, oh, my gosh, I am so here for this issue. We have work to do. And so it's funny that once you start opening up about the experiences that you've had or things that you've seen that others have experienced, everyone else seems to be a lot more willing to say, oh, some of my worst experiences were this, and I just don't see how we can get beyond it if we don't talk about it. It's like acting that we don't like. We don't have a problem, but we really do. So how would we expect to resolve this issue and really advance the issue for women as a whole if we don't talk about it? So, for me, I believe the first step is admitting we do have a problem and that we.

And then that gives us the. The ability to fix it.

Lisa Virtue:

Completely agree. And also just recognizing where we may have contributed ourselves to even in these microaggressions or small things. You know, I can definitely admit times where maybe there was gossip going on and I didn't stop it, where I should have or things like that where I could have taken a more active role. And a lot of people don't do that reflection. Right. So I completely agree with you. Like, first recognizing it and then recognizing our part in it instead of still pointing to others, like, well, yeah, because I had an experience with that woman over there that, you know, she's the problem. Instead of doing that, we need to, like, turn that back on us.

Right.

Kathryn Preston:

But I do think it's. You raise a good point in that it's a complex issue. It's not. I think so much about everything these days is. It's. Everything is so polarized and so dichotomized. Like, you know, you're. You are on one side or the other in everything when reality tells us that that's not really reality for most issues.

And so I think it's the same with this, where it's not like there's one person and they're all bad. You know, you recognize that everything is circumstance dependent. But what we do need to realize is we do approach a lot as women. We do tend to approach a lot of our experiences with the scarcity mindset. We're just trained to believe there's really only so many seats for us at the leadership table, let's say, or for this role or whatever it may be. And while perhaps holistically, we believe in women supporting women, and sure, we'd love to have women on our same level or share the team with other women. There is that element of stress and competition there. You don't want to out compete over yourself in a way, you know, and then perhaps have someone else come in and take your own role.

And so I don't think that that's. I think that's self imposed. I think that's a self imposed concern that we have. And it hurts you. It hurts the potential relationship that you could have with other women. It hurts the issues themselves, because we really aren't making room for each other. And that's something that I think that we can do a better job of.

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Yeah. You know, it's interesting, too, because thinking through my own career on this topic, there's only been a couple times where I even had a problem, I can call it this problem, right. Of women supporting women. And it was in older institutions with this culture that was much more competitive. And when it first started showing for me, one was blatantly, I tried to negotiate my salary right out of college with this old, I'll call it an old boys club. It definitely was. And the reputation they had, you know, I was moving home to help my mom.

She was going through divorce and all sorts of situations. So I ended up there and ended up accepting the job, even though they didn't negotiate with me. And in this case, the HR manager, who is only a few years my senior, we went to lunch a few months later, and we, I did feel very supported by her. She said, lisa, I have to tell you that this happened when you tried to negotiate your salary. My boss, not the owner, the boss. And that's important in a second, said, no, because she's a woman. He literally used that phrase. Right.

And so for me, bright eyed and bushy tailed, coming out of college, where I never felt gender bias, and I thought, you know, we're very much equals in the world, and we can do anything we put our mind to. Having that right out of the gate was very shocking and actually did not make me have that lens, which was interesting until years later when I thought back about that situation, because I didn't feel it for many years later. So that was the first gender bias, but that was a man, right?

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

And then fast forward to another older institution, a different one that I worked for. And I had some female mentors that I really appreciated. And then when push come to shove and they chose to hire someone who started just putting men into all of the speaking positions. And anything that was going on that had to do with recognition or letting them have a voice at the table. This was our new boss. And see this board of these fabulous female mentors, he could do no wrong. And so half of our executive, I was the first one. I was like, I just got to go before I say something wrong or do something.

I was like, I got to get out of here. Well, as I was leaving, I had all these women in the organization come to me because I was a leader in the team, too. And so they looked to me as setting an example, and they could confide in me about it. Maybe I could do something about it and say, I have been noticing that all the women have been silenced. What's going on? And so I did flag it for those board members that were women thinking, too. Like, they were my mentors. They would understand. They would see it.

Like, we are all experiencing this. And they completely ghosted me about it. And so that was that moment of, oh, my gosh, this whole thing. And very much they're the ones that are like, we support women. Oh, look at us. Rah Rahdeh. And very vocal and outwardly about it. But then when it was in their face, like, you have to do something about this or you need to at least look into it.

Completely ignored. And that was really fascinating for me. So for me, it was like, there. How do you know? Right? How do you know it's really a female thing is one of the big questions we have, because we're just all people, too, and some people work well together. And so I don't want to say, like, you're going to blanket, we talked about this before. We don't want to blanket blame. Right? Like, just because someone doesn't get along with you or they're not feeling like they can really pull you up along with them in that moment doesn't mean they're not an advocate or they're not going to support you. But how do you know it's these patterns, these themes? What about your experience, Catherine? What have you seen as, like, how do you know it's a female thing?

Kathryn Preston:

Well, it's a good point. And I think the key really is, as you said, patterns. So patterns of behavior. So everybody has an off day. We all have said things or had things taken out of context once in a while that we didn't mean how they came out. So those aren't the aggressions that we're talking about. What we're talking about is, you know, when something is deliberately happening to you, when it happens over and over and over again. And I think, by and large, people are attuned enough to their own experiences to recognize, one, whether or not the treatment is normal, and two, whether or not it's targeted towards them and out of.

Out of any reason to believe that it would be a reasonable treatment towards them. So I think, first of all, you know, what's happening to you if it's happening, if it's repeated. I think, as for women, one of the things that we need to recognize that even research supports that women can have implicit bias towards other women. So I think that's part of it that we neglect to remember when we talk about gender issues. Again, as I mentioned before, when we talk about the dichotomous relationship between us versus them, it's very easy to say men versus women in one group versus another. But when you're really doing the hard work to look introspectively within your own group, you need to take your blinders off and recognize some of those same implicit biases that we are pointing the finger outwardly towards other groups that feel that way towards us. Maybe, maybe not. But, you know, implicit biases do exist, even within women and between women.

And a great example of this is there was a study, I believe it was out of Yale, where they assigned groups to look at CV's one. It was the identical CV, but it was one was with a man's name, and one was with a woman's name. And even the female female interviewers, if you want to call them, that, selected the male applicants CV over the female applicant CV, even though they were exactly the same. And now, of course, probably that's not intentional. It's not like anyone's like, no, I only want a man to work with on this problem.

Lisa Virtue:

Well, at least they won't say it out loud.

Kathryn Preston:

Maybe, you know, I can't speak for everyone, but, you know, if we're really giving everyone the benefit of the doubt here, which we still should, I do think that that's a great example of how implicit bias occurs even within the same group, when women still selected a male candidate despite an identical. It was the identical cv. So I just think that that's a really interesting discussion point in that we need to own that we need to recognize this does exist. And the thing about implicit bias is it's not realistic to think you don't have implicit bias. It's not realistic. And it's also, if you feel like you don't have implicit bias towards any particular group or factor or situation, you haven't looked hard enough, because implicit bias is something sort of, we all come out of the box with in a lot of ways, but the important part is recognizing what those are, what our potential blind spots are, so that we don't make decisions based on those things. So if a woman has an unknown implicit bias against another woman, we can't therefore expect her to see a qualified female candidate and bring her up through the ranks. So I think when we're talking about implicit bias, we do need to bring it as part of the discussion that we can have biases against members of our same group.

Lisa Virtue:

That's really important. And this was something that I started really picking up on as I grew in leadership and was doing a lot of my own internal work before that time. Then I quit because then it hit me. It's like I just got to go, because now I see this as transcending anything I can help with. Right prior to that, I was starting to notice where women would be very. Just mean sometimes to other women. And the way that even I've had employees who would perpetuate gossip about a woman sleeping with a supervisor, things like that, where it's. These are those moments that an implicit bias would be there.

If you don't realize, you just sharing that again, how? Even though you say, oh, I don't think it's true, but you just shared it, and now you're just planting that seed into people's minds. If you don't think it's true, don't share it. Right. There's, like, these things that you don't realize that you have a big impact, even what you verbalize and what you share out. And then I also saw team members of mine would get very frustrated with other female co workers, and it's what they say. So there's another sign, right? There's the patterns where they're not actually saying it, but you're picking up on how people are being treated. But then there's the actual saying of it out loud. And so when people catch themselves or you catch someone else saying something like, ugh, that young woman or young girl, she's acting like a girl, and just these, like.

And she just thinks she's so, so great, but she doesn't know anything yet because she's so young. And you look at that resume and the track record of this person they're talking about, and the data shows something completely different. Right. But the way they choose to attack in that moment cause of their own issue is also what you're talking about. Like, there's clearly a bias coming out through those words and statements that will now harm this other person or will harm you because it doesn't look good when you're saying those things. Right.

Kathryn Preston:

I think also, though, to your point, we come into any situation with all the baggage and all the experience that we bring for good and for bad. And, for example, I've experienced my own really toxic and unfortunate dynamics with other women that I can't tell you why they felt that that was necessary to interact with me like that. That just made me, it just drained me. It made me wonder, what have I done in choosing my career? What have I done in choosing this place to work or this group or wherever? It's not like it's a single instance, and then you move on. It's really, it can be large enough where it changes a person's career trajectory, because even studies show this as well, which is the dynamics between women, if incivility, which is another way to describe how women can treat one another, if we treat each other in an incivil way. You read some of these papers, they call it incivility. If. If we see that and we see that that is heightened between women, that is a significant predictor of whether or not that woman will stay in that job.

So it's an expensive problem for employees. It's an expensive problem for employers and organizations as well. So I do think that this is a widespread issue that's far reaching beyond simply, well, it made me feel bad, and she hurt my feelings. You know, it's. This is a real problem for organizations that they need to get to the bottom of, and that's something that I work with them to help resolve. But even when you're thinking about your own experiences, I think the key is to recognize that we don't need to replicate the past. So just because I've been the target of unfortunate treatment in the past doesn't mean that that's behavior that I should perpetuate. So for that reason, I not only speak and work with this topic regularly, I make it a very strong point and an initiative to actively treat people the exact opposite.

Like, if there is something I can do for you, I'm going to do it. I will do it above and beyond, you know, like that type of thing where I just. I think that's how we all should live, though it's unfortunate that it oftentimes happens as a result of being treated, perhaps in the reverse. But I do think that it's something that we need to keep in mind, that if there is something that we can help anyone else do, or if there's some role that we can play to make their circumstance easier as, as a result of perhaps our own experience. If that could be easier for them than it was for us, why not make it easier? I think so often the thought is, well, I had it hard, so, you know, they will too. And it's counterproductive.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Kathryn Preston:

And it's unnecessary. So I do think that there's a role for us to recognize where we come from, learn from our own experiences and not replicate it.

Lisa Virtue:

Completely agree. Because we hear that way too often, don't we? Where a woman in the executive role or somewhere where they've gotten, they've gotten there, they arrived, and then they look at other women like, I don't need to go out of my way to help you because it took me a lot to get here. And so give me that recognition. Like it just becomes very kind of selfish too right of you can, I don't need to help. You have to work hard and then you'll make it. And where that's. Yes, true for everyone in life. Like, we all need to work hard.

We're not asking for anyone to give women handouts. We're just saying, hey, there's a better way to treat each other that, and.

Kathryn Preston:

We don't need to stand in each other's way. I think sometimes there is an intentional component to it. And, you know, when you're on the receiving end of that, and I think that this discussion of questioning whether or not someone is truly on the receiving end of that is placing blame on the victim. I don't like calling them victims because I really don't view it as victimization. And I think that that takes away people's power. When you'd call them victims, they do think that they're targets. But to then question, well, was it really that bad? Or then it's putting this whole spin on it of it's really irrelevant. Your story is irrelevant, your experience is irrelevant versus saying, you know what, there's data to back these experiences.

This is not something we're just coming up with. But it's the one thing we never talk about, unhealthy dynamics between women. It does exist. The data supports that exist. Let's move on from that. Accept it, and let's start working through it.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, absolutely. And I love what you said earlier about when you recognize that, what can you do, right? So turning it back around and back to my experience about when I left that workplace, and I just knew, I knew that I had contributed to problems over the years, too. I'm not going to say I didn't again, implicit bias. Right. And that's part of maturing and growing into yourself and who you are. And I. I just said, well, you know what my next chapter is going to be. I'm going to dedicate my career to supporting women, period.

Now I see so many different angles of this. And that was my, like, torch I'm going to bear. And I'm not saying every woman needs to do that, but just recognizing, like, what can I do differently or what can I can control?

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Can help, especially when you go through. I think that's like you're saying when you experience it, but you're determined to walk the walk, not just talk the kids.

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah, I think that it also just comes to. It comes down to how do you want to be treated? We hear it all the time. We've heard it since we were kids, but for some reason, we ignore it when it matters most. And if you're a boss and you had a boss above you, how would you want to be treated? How would you want to be supervised? You know, what. What latitude would you need to make you feel like a respected member of the team? So I think that that's the first question we all should ask ourselves. If we have people that work on a lower level than we do, let's say, you know, so, so commonly you, you see when the statistics come out that it's. It's very vertical, that the dynamics, the toxic dynamics tend to, like, flow down. It's a top down issue where supervisor manager perhaps has some unhealthy leadership styles, if you wanna give them that.

Probably the nice way to describe it. But I think at the end of the day, we need to ask ourselves how would we want to be treated if we were being managed by someone and just start from there. So if you are someone that doesn't like to be micromanaged, perhaps the people beneath you don't like to be micromanaged either. And I wouldn't say that that's bullying, but I do think that it contributes to the larger issue of being overly inserting yourself in your employees lives or demanding fire drills all the time at odd hours for their things that you do not need to add to their workload in order to assess whether or not they're committed to their jobs. And so often we hear things like that, and those things are things that make others leave men and women. But I think, by and large, we have done a really good job as women at pointing the finger and recognizing what society needs to do to make room for us, essentially, but we have not done a good job of figuring out how we could make room for each other. And again, it's an expensive problem to solve for organizations if you wait long enough for women to start leaving. And I'll continue to just add to that, that if you're in an organization where people are too afraid to speak up or defend one another, so commonly we think, well, it's not my business, I'm just going to keep my head down and do my work.

But that then perpetuates toxic cultures, and that's an expensive problem as well for organizations, because then they're just, leaders don't really know there's a problem until it's gotten so big that it finally reaches through all the layers of people beneath them to know that their intended culture of inclusivity is not actually the experience of their people. So I think that's also partly an issue of how we've structured companies with our organizational hierarchies, because there's so much red tape and so many layers between your groundworkers, essentially, and the people up at the top where I could actually do something to manage issues with the culture. So it's a very multifaceted problem. And so much of it, I think, has to do also with the, how comfortable your people feel in not only speaking up for themselves, but speaking up for each other. Because if you have a culture where you say that's something you value, but that's not the lived experience of your people, the problem is just going to spread like wildfire.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And people learn to be silent, and that's the worst, isn't it? When they get a survey or something, they're like, sure, everything's fine. Yeah, everything's fine.

Kathryn Preston:

Because it's like, where do you start?

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Kathryn Preston:

Exactly. So often it's just, well, where do you start? Or I've tried to broach this issue before and they told me it wasn't an issue, so, but you know that I've even been in that position before, wherever I did vocalize concerns, but then I was told those concerns were not an issue. And then when surveys come around again, like, well, what do you, what should I say?

Lisa Virtue:

Yep, right there.

Kathryn Preston:

All is, well.

Lisa Virtue:

I also think, you know, we won't get into it very deep today, but a big passion of mine, too, is like, women supporting women starts at home. And that's really, as us with daughters and nieces and people that look up to us and are always watching, how are we talking about women that we work with? How are we talking to women in our lives when they're around, what are they seeing us do and exemplify? And then also, how are we treating these girls? How are we cultivating that, supporting each other? My daughter's almost nine, so she's at that age of, like, girls are starting to get catty already, which is crazy to me. But then they're besties, right? And so I'm just trying to figure out how do we cultivate this feeling of support? Because then you get into competing for the same boy and all this other stuff, which is the root of all of it, right? Which is why we get these, like, implicit biases, because it goes back to puberty in these times that we were in literal competition biologically. Right. It's so silly, but that's really where it comes from. So being able to mature out of that and have adults around you to help you see and have a reflection of what's going on, that's one of the reasons I wrote my book with my daughter, Career Mama. That's the whole theme, is women supporting women starts at home.

Kathryn Preston:

That's incredible. And it's a very important message. And you're exactly right, it does start at home. And if that means we need to do a better job as moms, sisters, wives, girlfriends, whoever at asking ourselves where have we fallen short so that we don't pass that behavior on to the next generation, I think those are conversations we need to have with ourselves, at the very least with ourselves. Because I know that no matter how outspoken we are, we've all been in positions where, you know, why? Could have done something about that. Or I could have believed her, right? Or I could have spoken on her behalf or something. Because I know in my case, so commonly it was, I got support privately, but not publicly. And that makes all the difference.

And I have a science background, so I keep going back to the data. But the data does support that. By and large, women do not have a strong support network in the workplace. Men tend to, but women don't for various reasons. And so you can imagine how isolating that is. It's very spiraling when you feel like particularly, again, as we say, women support women. That's the mantra we always hear. And when that's not your lived experience, it feels even more isolating.

And because you think that you're the only one this is happening to. But again, as we've talked about, this happens to a lot of us. We just don't talk about it. It's almost like we don't want, we don't want to let the cat out of the bag that we can't handle our own issues or something. We don't want people to think that, you know, we as women can't handle our own issues because we can handle them. It's just that for whatever reason, we choose to not shine light on this issue. But I do think that this is really the key towards working together as a group to achieve all the things that we're trying so hard to achieve, like the gender pay issue and just equal treatment in general. We just need to recognize that we can't fight that battle if we're fighting this battle silently within ourselves and within our group.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, you're spot on. Because we keep seeing the data back to the data. We're not moving the needle as much as a lot of women feel like we should be, or even men. Like, well, gosh, I've hired that woman into an executive role. I'm doing this and that, like, I'm doing all the things I can. Why is the data not showing that I'm doing a good job? Right. It's like, it's not just about you, buddy.

Kathryn Preston:

Well, it's also not about the numbers. I think that's the mistake a lot of. A lot of people and a lot of organizations make by thinking, well, let's just increase our numbers of women in these positions and women in top leadership roles. But it's not getting to the core issues that we've been talking about. It's not resolving the dynamics between women. Those are the things that we need to work on. And that's what I continue to try to drive home when I speak about it. And we do need to do that hard work on ourselves and on our group as a whole, because, again, the issue does exist.

And another point is, I also am concerned about how much attention we exclusively give towards the gender biases that exist between men and women. And I'm not saying that they don't still exist, but we only ever hear, really, about all the things men aren't letting us do or all the things men are doing wrong. I don't want to live in a world where our boys grow up feeling ashamed of being boys, just as much as our girls shouldn't grow up feeling less than because they're girls. So I do think while the strength of discussion needed to happen to sort of shake the world, that men and women need to figure this out together, I think we need to tip the scales back and have a bit more of a balanced discussion where, sure, men have some work to do. But we need to be very open as women that we do, too, and we'll meet in the middle.

Lisa Virtue:

I hundred percent agree with you. I've seen a little bit of a generational shift, but I think it really depends on who you circle with. Right. But a lot of men in my life were my biggest supporters.

Kathryn Preston:

Absolutely.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Right there with you. And it is like, I'll use my husband as an example. He does a lot of work around inclusion and equity, and he, even before talking to you today, he's like, I mean, why do we keep thinking that women can't have opportunity? And he's been such a supportive me in my career, and he loves his female colleagues. And, you know, it's just. It's one of those things for him. Exactly what you're saying where it feels like the shame of, like, I don't want to be blamed for gender bias. Like, where am I doing that? You know, he understands implicit bias, but it's.

He's not actively holding anyone back or getting in their way. And to your point, like, boys shouldn't be shamed around it and girls shouldn't be shamed around it either. But how do we as partners, look at it and go, we've got. We all have work to do. It's not just you.

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah, not just. Not just you. We all. We all need to come to the table.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, Catherine, before we wrap up, is there, are there any last minute tips? Like, anyone listening to this, what can people do today or tomorrow to try and start moving that needle? Do you think so?

Kathryn Preston:

I have tips for individuals in teams, and I have tips for organizations. And I believe, well, I'll just leave it with tips geared towards individuals. I'd say one of the key things that you really shouldn't underestimate in terms of importance, whether you're experiencing this, you're the one being targeted or you see this happening in your organization, do not underestimate the power of investing in your self confidence. And we could have a whole nother session on self confidence. But self confidence is not arrogance. It's not being egotistical. I think, particularly as women, we think, oh, well, I don't want to be boastful. It's unbecoming of a woman, but you need to recognize your worth.

You need to protect that and don't let someone make you feel less than. And I think that it's a very challenging dynamic to navigate when your self confidence is being affected as part of your work, particularly if you identify a lot of your identity with what you do. But also, if there's some targeting happening from someone you respect or someone in an office or role that you respect in the workplace, you might start thinking, well, maybe I'm not as good at this as I thought I was, or do I even deserve to be here? I mean, we've all thought that, but we need to also recognize that no one's gonna protect your self confidence the way you will. And that takes hard work, even among the most confident of us. So I think for individuals, really recognize your value. Hold on to that and don't forget it.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. And then organizations can work with you, too, of looking at how leaders can make a difference and how to shift culture. Right?

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah. So, with organizations. I work with organizations on a couple of things. But as for the dynamics between women, that issue is exactly like you said about how to create inclusive cultures. How do you create good and optimal dynamics between women? How do you create teams that function optimally, men and women? Because, let's face it, we all got to work together. Right. But we just need to. The bottom line is we need to have these more holistic conversations and balanced conversations about the roles each of us play, not just that group has the problem, they need to solve it.

You know, we all bring a lot to the table, and there's a lot of ways that we can work together to find ways that we can improve productivity for organizations, improve the work situation and experience for the employees, which I think is key, that ultimately reflects in the productivity and experience of the organization. If their people are happy and their people feel that they have purpose and that they're valued in their organization. And so much of that has to do with how we treat each other, because we're the ones that we see every day. We don't see our leaders necessarily every day. So how do we make that day to day experience better for employees? That's my focus. And then for employees and teams, how to communicate with confidence, whether it's with clients or with each other or in meetings or how do you. How do you optimize those experiences? So even the most introverted of us feels confident in getting front of their colleagues, getting in front of their colleagues, and sharing their projects or advocating for resources for their team. These are all things that ultimately will make the organization stronger, but we need the people with the strength to be able to voice those things that they need.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. The self confidence is key, isn't it? Because both for the person having the bias against someone else, there's clearly a lack of confidence somewhere from that.

Kathryn Preston:

It definitely stems from. From that. For sure?

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, for sure. And then on the other end, the receiver of the targeting, building up their confidence so it can kind of bounce off and also not affect their opportunity. Right. Because I can see that a lot of times when it, it knits at you, it pulls you down. And then one, you might end up doing similar behaviors because you're thinking, maybe this will make me feel better or the, um, the bias that's happening to me. You know, I want to talk about it. And so if you're not super confident now, that can just spiral. So I can see the benefit of that for sure.

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Awesome. Well, Kathryn, thank you so much for your time. I know we could talk all day, but I'll have to.

Kathryn Preston:

That's for sure. We'll have to do a part two sometime.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, I would love that.

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

So how can people get a hold of you?

Kathryn Preston:

So I have a website, kathrynpreston.com. Kathryn is k a t h r y n. Last name Preston. P r e s t o n. So kathrynpreston.com or LinkedIn. I'm on it all of the time. I'm on there as Kathryn Preston ddsmshe. So I would love to connect with anybody and hear your stories or hear ways perhaps that I can assist in your journeys through this, whether as an individual or organization.

So we have a lot of work to do on this, but I really do feel that this is something we can do something about. And the good news is, Lisa, you gravitated towards this and you're giving voice to this issue as well, which just shows how important it is. So I think that with more people like you and with a voice behind this issue, we can really make some headway.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, 100%. We just got to say it out loud, keep talking, be courageous and confident, and talk about it.

Kathryn Preston:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

Let's stop talking about the gossip.

Kathryn Preston:

I know. Let's make women supporting women not just an aspirational thing that we say, but the actual lived experience, experience of every woman.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. It's not just a hashtag anymore.

Kathryn Preston:

I know. We got to walk the walk and talk the talk now.

Lisa Virtue:

Yep. Thank you so much, Kathryn.

Kathryn Preston:

Thank you so much, Lisa.