Lisa Virtue:

Anna, thank you so much for joining me today. I'm just thrilled to have you. After I found your book, interviewology, I've been digging in and loving it as a resource to help my clients figure out where their gaps are when it comes to interviewing. So excited to talk to you about that. But before we get into the meat of it, let's talk about you and your journey as a woman in the workforce and how you ended up here.

Anna Papalia:

Sure. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate it. And thank you for getting my book. The entire reason I'm here is because I'm incredibly passionate about interviewing and that started really a long time ago. I opened my book by telling this story, but I got into the University of Pennsylvania and Ivy League school in my college interview. So I truly believe that an interview can change your life. And I went on to study psychology and I started a career in HR and by way of doing recruiting, I wasn't an HR generalist type, I was more on the people side and I was promoted several times.

And in my last role I was a director of talent acquisition where I was responsible for hiring everyone in the organization. And I loved my job and I loved what I did. But unfortunately, I felt like there was nowhere else for me to go in the corporate world. And I had this nagging feeling that I wanted to help people learn how to interview better because I was in the middle of it. Daily I was interviewing job seekers that were untrained, I was co interviewing with hiring managers that were untrained. And I just wanted to get out of that and I wanted to do something different and start my own business. And I quit my job April of 2011 with no business plan and no real idea of what it would be like to do any of this. And I just quit with this instinct and this intuition.

And the president told me that I had moxie and that's just about all I had, literally. And a couple months later, because I'm a very lucky person, the dean of the Fox School of Business called me. I had hired all of my previous interns from a program that I had created from his program. And he said, hey, I hear you're trying to teach people how to interview. You want to come and teach 700 students a year how to do it? And that was the beginnings of my business back in 2011. And it was like getting a PhD in interviewing. So for eleven years I worked the Fox school business teaching juniors and seniors how to interview better. In addition, I was consulting with large corporations like Lincoln Financial and Cigna and all these large companies on their interview process.

And in that process, I realized that how we do this historically is really problematic. And I thought, I don't think we all do this the same way. And I discovered interview styles, wrote a personality assessment, reiterated it, and worked on it and tweaked it, and then came up with my product, the interviewology profile, which is the framework and the base of the book that just came out in January called the new science of interviewing.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And it's so fabulous because everything you talk about is with my experience being, I was 20 years hiring manager and sometimes my own recruiter because the company, as I worked for, didn't have the resources to have a full recruitment team. And on those panels, especially with executives. Wow. I feel like maybe, I don't know if this is true to your experience. The higher they get, the more grounded in their own style they really sink into is what I saw a lot. And so I'd be on a panel with, you know, four different executives and the way they would interview and how they would process it later as we were discussing candidates. Fascinating.

So everything you were talking about in your book, I'm like, yep, I've seen that. Been there. I love that you have data behind it now instead of us that have this experience. It's like, well, it's subjective to my little world. Right. What I've seen now we can turn to a resource like this and say, okay, there's data, there's research. Anna's done the work. She's made this big lift for all of us.

And I would love to see more on the hiring manager side, too. I know you have a big push in helping teams and getting them to really understand how they're interviewing, because we see candidates just struggle with this.

Anna Papalia:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

They're not doing it every day. Well, hopefully they are if they're getting interviews, but typically, it's nothing. Their strengths, which is why there's coaches like us, too, to help them figure out where are their gaps. Because the interview is so much different than doing the work, for sure.

Anna Papalia:

I mean, we know that 90% of hiring managers are never trained to interview. We also know that if you're actively looking for a job, you may be unemployed or looking for a job for six to nine months, which means you're probably going on anywhere from 20 to 50 interviews, whether those are from phone screens all the way on up to technical in person interviews. And that means that you, the job seeker, may actually have more interviewing experience than the hiring manager. But the problem is, is that we're in an employer's market and because the employers have the advantage, they don't have to train people. They can make biased decisions, they can do whatever they want because they're in a position of power. And historically we've been there for quite a while until Covid happened for a little bit and it was a candidate driven market there for a little while. And that's when things get really interesting because the pressure and the onus and responsibility goes on to the employers to do better at job interviews. But again, now we're back in this employer's market, so they can get away with a lot of bad behavior, ghosting people, asking inappropriate questions.

The list is long and it's very easy for hiring managers to blame job seekers. That's always the easiest thing. Oh, they all suck. No one's really qualified, no one's prepared. I don't like anyone's resumes. Go back to, you know, you've heard it all before, but that's problematic in a lot of ways because most of these hiring managers are not trained to interview and they're conducting really bad interviews.

Lisa Virtue:

I totally see that and agree with you for sure. And it causes so much frustration on the job seekers that there are very, really well qualified people, great people that would do the job really well, but they're just not able to shine and show that in that interview. So let's get into some of your kind of overview of what those different styles look like and then some tips on how your message is very similar to mine. Like the more we know ourselves, the more confident we are and the more we can adapt if needed, and really do shine in those conversations. So why don't you tell the listeners a little bit more about what are those styles? What does that look like? And anything you want to message there.

Anna Papalia:

Sure. So first, anyone can go to my website, theinterviewology.com, to take the interview style assessment to discover it for yourselves. But the quick overview is that I discovered that in interviews, both job seekers and hiring managers, we all interview in this style. And your style doesn't change whether you're the job seeker or the hiring manager. And we all interview in these distinct ways. So one, we have charmers. Charmers prioritize, making a connection, and they want to be like, charmers look at an interview like a performance and they are the star of the show. Then we have challengers.

Challengers look at interviews like they're going to figure something out. They look at it like a cross examination. Challengers see interviews as an opportunity for themselves to feel respected and heard in the way that charmers want to be liked. Challengers want to be respected and heard. And then we have examiners. Examiners look at a job interview like a test that they are either going to pass or fail. They focus quite a lot on their qualifications, and they minimize showcasing their personality. Examiners are very quiet, and they are very steadfast.

They're very private, unlike their polar opposite, the charmer, who is more of the storyteller and paying compliments and telling jokes. An examiner would really never do that. They don't really talk outside of their job description or what they have done at work. They rarely tell stories about themselves. And then lastly, we have harmonizers. Harmonizers are the opposite of challengers. Harmonizers look at an interview like a tryout for a team that they want to join. Harmonizers are almost always thinking about the collective, the group.

How do I fit in? I want to adapt. They are harmonizers, after all. So while they're looking to adapt, their opposite, challenger, is looking to be respected and heard. So in this quick way, if you think about how you interview or how you've been interviewed, we can almost automatically think, oh, I have a sense of who I might be. And also, maybe that's why my wires got crossed with that person that I was interviewing with. Right. Because we have these different priorities in interviews. And when I discovered interview styles, I think that was the most fascinating thing for me.

Scary. I was sort of felt blindsided when I started doing this research, and I realized, wait, not everyone goes into interviews wanting to be liked and get the job. Like, that's not a universal experience, because for me, I am a charmer. And I, as a hiring manager and a job seeker, am always going in to be liked. I always across the board. And when I did all my research and talked to thousands of people and they told me, no, I don't do that, I'm like, oh, wow, this is very fascinating.

Lisa Virtue:

I also am a charmer. I did your quiz, and I was like, okay, yep. Always looking for that connection with others and on both sides, for sure, because I do know that the fit matters a lot, but it doesn't matter as much to everyone. There's a lot of people out there that would rather just see that someone's qualified and has the skill set right and can ask tough questions if they need to at work. And that can be a very opposite feeling for others.

Anna Papalia:

We certainly can mix those things up, right? As charmers, we sort of think that everyone wants to be liked. Everyone wants to go in and get the job because they're likable. But what I found is, no, that's not true. Examiners. I mean, to a point, everyone wants to be liked, right? You don't want to be hated. Examiners in job interviews don't really think about it that way. You know, they think, like, if they like me, that's like icing on the cake. But, like, I want them to see me as qualified and as a charmer.

I don't even think about that. Qualified? Like, no, if they like me, then they'll hire me. And examiners think if I'm qualified, then they'll hire me. And the important takeaway here is neither one of these perspectives is wrong. And because I collected all of this research and realized that we actually have a normal distribution in our data, which means that there are a quarter charmers and a quarter challengers, and so it's an equal distribution. So it's not like all women are charmers and all men are.

Lisa Virtue:

No, that was going to be the question about gender. That's fascinating.

Anna Papalia:

And race as well, which is really important. Like, the assessment wouldn't be scientifically valid if all African Americans, for example, were harmonizers, right. Or all charmers were women. So there's an equal distribution in the data. And it just proves to us that we are all doing this in a very specific way. And it doesn't matter your race or your gender or your age. It has a lot more to do with your personality. And I write about this in the book where that's where some of the old interviewing vice got it really wrong.

It's like, just memorize these answers and you'll get the job. Just pretend to be something that you're not. It would be like someone telling me to go into that interview and pretend I had brown eyes. I have green eyes. There's nothing I can do about that. I am a charmer. I'm an extrovert. There's.

I can't. I could possibly pretend to be an introvert for about seven minutes, and then, like, eventually. And, like, if you get a job, eventually your true colors are going to shine through. So this is really, really bad advice out there about how to interview. And I felt like the best way is to help people. I felt that my clients didn't need a script to memorize. That's not what people need ahead of job interviews. What they need is a mirror.

They need a coach. They need someone to say, hey, this is who you are. And we love that. About you. And this is amazing. And I have to say, I have been so fortunate. I mean, now I've owned a business for 13 years. Previous to that, I had the most incredible bosses and mentors and wonderful people who always saw things in me even before I did and got me in the right positions and helped me see how it was a value add.

And that's what I hope I do as a coach, and that's what I hope interview styles does. It's like you get your report, you realize who you are, and you go, oh, of course, that's me. And I should lean into that rather than trying to change it or pretend to be something I'm not, because that never works.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, we've all seen it, haven't we? On both sides, where if you feel like you go in inauthentically, how much you fall on your face in an interview and vice versa. If you're a hiring manager and someone's just like, maybe you heard a referral about somebody and their personality is not matching what you're experiencing in that interview, it rubs you the wrong way, and then they fall down on the list of candidates. Right. So that authenticity is so important, truly.

Anna Papalia:

I mean, I think we can extrapolate that into all facets of our life and certainly at work, and we are in a new time in the world and work and what we do, that authenticity is actually important, and you're going to get paid for it. And, I mean, look at social media and look at all. All of these ways that we communicate. The more you you are, the better you'll do, especially right now in 2024, it's a lot less about pretending to be, you know, something that you're not. But not only that, but, like, fitting into the pack. Like, look who's successful right now. It's the people that stand out.

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Absolutely. I hear from a lot of job seekers about, okay, how can I read the room, or do I need to adjust my style when I'm in an interview and clearly, like, maybe I'm a charmer and the other person is clearly not, and they want to hear something different from me? What are your tips for people? We're talking about authenticity and leaning in at the same time. They do want to be successful in an interview when they know that the role would be really good for their personality type. What would you say to those concerns from job seekers?

Anna Papalia:

I would say use your emotional intelligence and shift to a point. But here's the thing. If you shift too much, you will be doing this thing which is not being true to yourself and not being authentic. And if the answer that you're giving or showing your personality or talking about your weaknesses in an interview doesn't vibe with them, it rubs them the wrong way. That isn't something you should change just to get the job. Interviewing job interviewing is a lot like dating. You know, you, we, we think, like, it will only be successful if they make me the offer and then I'm in a position of power that I can decide if I want to work there. But you haven't done yourself any favors.

If you haven't presented yourself authentically and now you just got the offer, maybe you'll take it just for the money. But the culture's all wrong, and you kind of knew that in the interview. You know, much like dating, if you are yourself and you're feeling a really good connection, then that's a really good indicator that you're going to have a great relationship with this supervisor, those managers, the team, whomever, much like a date. I would caution anyone to go too far in an interview and just tell someone what they want to hear. Every time I've had clients and I've worked with over 10,000 people, every time I've had a client that has told me they've done that or they found themselves in a bad job, it's because they, they abandoned themselves in the interview process and they started participating in, like, some denial. Right. Like, oh, you know, but this is such a great job, and I need the job and that there's one jerk in the interview, you know, that sort of thing. But if you push through and kind of just maintain who you are, that's the.

You want to test it there so you don't get stuck at a job, it's not going to be good for you. And a company that doesn't share your values, that's so important.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. Yeah. So when we talk about, like, shifting to a point, I'll test this on you a little bit with your research and experience. I'd love to hear you out. With my clients, typically, I talk to them about how they're representing themselves with the context of. So that they hit some of those different kind of learning styles is how I used to frame it. And I'm going to frame it more on this interview style that you've done this research on, of. Okay.

There's someone that wants to hear you ask some challenging questions. So those questions you ask at the end of the interview show your values. Right. And authentically what is important to you that can do really well for someone that's more of that challenger mentality. Data metrics, your qualifications, hitting those points really quickly again, even if that's not what you would naturally say to connect with someone, just making sure you're pulling that through right in the conversation can really add value to that interview style technique. Am I on the right track here of like, that's kind of the adjustment. It's like some of the content that you're using but not changing maybe how you're presenting or your tone, like, what's authentic to you.

Anna Papalia:

Certainly. I think one of the most important aspects of understanding your interview style is understanding, obviously, what you're good at. That's great. Right. But then the thing that was most enlightening to me in this process of discovering this was, oh, these are all the things I don't do. And like, we all have a tendency to think that our way is the best way. That is a universal truth that I discovered in my book. We all think that our interview style is the best style.

And I hope what I have discovered in this process is this has made me more open minded. It has made me more understanding. It has made me realize that my way isn't the only way. And I now have to tap into, when I'm in meetings or in interviews, I try to tap into my polar opposite, which is an examiner. And I have one of my employees who's wonderful. He's a data scientist, and he's such an examiner through and through. We couldn't be more different. And I tap into that part of my brain sometimes, and I think, what would David do right now? What would David say? How would he position this? How would he ask this question? So I think it's a lot.

It's not about pretending to be something that you're not. It's more about balancing and knowing, okay, maybe I was being a little too charming there. Maybe we talked a little too much about kids and life and the weather. Now I have to shift a little bit more into, we got to talk about qualifications. And just as a tick, as a reminder to yourself in interviews, if you are a harmonizer, for example, you prioritize getting along, not rocking the boat, adapting. And you can ask yourself, did I lose myself a little bit in that moment? I need to ask a question. I know I have questions that I want asked. I can ask them.

Giving yourself permission to be more of the challenger and challengers, for example, can do the opposite. Right? They are very comfortable asking tough questions, putting people on the hot seat. They look at interviews like a cross examination, and they can give themselves permission to say to trust the process a little bit. It's okay. Not all of my questions are going to get answered. They'll get answered in time. How can I connect with this person? How can I ask them a question that's not about putting them on a hot seat, but rather let's build a connection. You see, we all have a priority.

It's about understanding what your priority is and trying to shift it a little bit and being open minded to other people's needs as well. And I discovered these and I'm not a master at it. We're all working on this continually because we all have our preferences and that's where biases are born, in our preferences.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. And like you said, it's, we think our ways the right way. So there's the bias right there. Yep, yep, yep.

Anna Papalia:

I know everyone's biases as soon as I start to understand their interview style. I mean, it's fascinating, clear as day. You know, I look back on all the hiring managers I co interviewed with and I'm like, oh, this makes sense now.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, that's what I started doing too, as I was reading your book. I'm like, oh, I can pick out a lot of personality types now and interviews for sure. Yeah, it's great. And I'm a huge believer in as much as we can for our clients and job seekers. When we're giving free content or we're working one on one with them, like try to pull it down and keep it simple because there's so much noise out there and so much overwhelm when it comes to the job search, especially in corporate America. And you know everyone, like you said, just trying. Maybe you're desperate to get a job at this point. You've been laid off now your money's running out.

Whatever it is. People are feeling like, okay, once I get the interview, because I finally got an interview, I've been ghosted so much. Now I have an interview. I have to nail it. I have to get this job. And they might walk away from the interview thinking that went really well because we talked a lot about our personal lives. Are we connected on this certain level? And so then they try to dissect it and analyze it after and it can be devastating when you feel like it went well and then you don't convert the job offer. And I think to your point, what I've been noticing is that it's because people maybe connected with an interviewer that was their similar style.

So for instance, a charmer maybe leaned in heavy into more of that personal chatter, and so they felt like, oh, we connected so good. It went really well. But in reality, what the bias was of the panel or the overall process was they needed a certain skill set and the interviewee would not know that. Right.

Anna Papalia:

So, as well, I also think. Sorry. I think it's incredibly important that we unpack this idea that an interview, that you can do well in an interview and not get the job. So here's another myth that I uncovered, and I talk about quite a lot on social media, which is, oh, it went really well, so I'm going to get the job, or I nailed that interview, so I'm certainly going to get the offer. No, you can nail an interview and not get the offer. You can bomb an interview and get the offer. So those two things don't really correlate. And I want to, and whenever I can have the opportunity to really unpack this idea that if you did a good job, you'll get the offer, you could have done the best job, you could have been their best candidate that day, and then later that afternoon or the next day, somebody better came along, you still did great, and you're still awesome.

But someone else came in different or provided something different. There are so many factors in hiring that it's really hard to pin it all on yourself or all on the, the hiring, whatever. Like, there's budgetary constraints, there are differing opinions on hiring panels. I mean, I've seen it all, and I hate when clients come to me and they're like, I nailed it. Why didn't I get it? I'm like, oh, how many hours do you have? We could talk about all the things.

Lisa Virtue:

There's a lot of what if? Yeah.

Anna Papalia:

So instead of focusing on that, I encourage people to focus on the things that they can control, which is themselves. And we know that applying to jobs is a numbers game. And the more you apply, the more interviews you get scheduled, and the more you interview, the better you get. So you need to do it more. And if you've only been applying to a few jobs here and there and you've only been on one interview, you're not going to get a job, especially in this market right now, there are fewer jobs and there's a shortage of talent, and there aren't a lot of qualified people. So employers can be pickier and it's a really tough time. So you have to upskill, you have to make sure that your resume is absolute best, and you have to practice your interview skills. And the more you interview, the better you get.

And that's just the bottom line.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, I totally agree. But so many people are like, oh, I do great in interviews. I'm just going to wing it all the time. I'm a charmer. I'm great.

Anna Papalia:

I mean, I've worked with over 10,000 people, and I've worked with, and I worked with college students as well. So you imagine I have seen a lot of college students try to wing it. I tell them all the time, you know, you think Michael Jordan just wings it. You think Serena Williams. Even the pros practice, like, the idea to just wing it, because basically, an interview is a set of questions about you, and it's a test according to the EEOC. And it's really important that you sit down and think deeply about some of these questions before an intimidating executive asks you those questions in a boardroom. Nobody in my experience, and I've been in thousands of interviews, nobody does better when they wing it. Nobody.

It's an excuse. They tell themselves to not do the work and to get out of doing the homework. They tell them, oh, I'm better on the spot, guaranteed. No, you're not. If you tell yourself this and you're listening to this, listen to me when I tell you, you don't. You're just telling yourself that because you don't want to do the work, and the work's easier than bombing or being embarrassed in front of an executive.

Lisa Virtue:

It's so true. I'm right there.

Anna Papalia:

I hate it when I see someone bomb an interview. Oh, it's the worst. I've seen it so many times. It's like a slow car accident right in front of you, and you're like, yes. And that's part of the reason why I do what I do now. I mean, I've been teaching people how to interview for 13 years. I mean, I had been in so many interviews where I was like, this is avoidable. This was avoidable.

Lisa Virtue:

Yep.

Anna Papalia:

And it's simple, too. This is not rocket science. This is. These are some simple tools that we can give you some basic understandings about yourself that will forever help you interview better.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. It's an art, right? The interview is not the job. We know that. And being able to pull those two apart, I think, to your point, I see it all the time, too. Just people don't want to do the work or they have an excuse why they don't do it, or they just let time slip by and they're not practicing. So, yeah, finding a coach, finding mock interviewers, those people that are trusted in your life 100% will help you.

Anna Papalia:

I also think that there's sometimes I've seen this where people feel as though, because the interview isn't the job and this is a. Challengers and examiners sometimes fall into this bucket where they're like, I just have to get through the interview because my resume speaks for itself. And then they'll come across as cocky or overconfident, which is never good. And they just believe, like, they don't have to, quote unquote, play the game. They hate the interview. And then that rubs everyone the wrong way and pushes them away. And then they come to me nine months later, and they're like, I've been interviewing for nine months, and I don't understand why I can't get a job. The interview is supposed to be easy.

I'm like, well, it's supposed to be. You're participating in it correctly. So I think a lot of it is participation. Both sides have to participate correctly. Hiring managers have to ask correct questions and prepare themselves. They have to be trained, like we talked about. And job seekers need to participate. And I get it.

Like, you know, you might hate it, you don't want to do it, but, like, tough. Like, collectively, we've all decided that this is what we need to do in order to hire people. So work through those emotions, figure it out, and then, like, prepare and practice.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. Yeah, have the emotions. Give yourself a peek, and then move on and do the work.

Anna Papalia:

I tell people all the time, go to therapy. You know, work through those emotions. Those are important emotions. I'm not telling you to not fail them, but, like, you gotta work through that in order to get to the next phase, because I've seen a lot of people not be able to get to the next phase because they won't work through those emotions. And they keep thinking, I'll just. It'll be fine. I'll just get this. I'm like, yeah, you're not gonna get it if you don't work through that part of it.

And here's the other important thing that I am very passionate about. Job interviews, clearly, and interviews in general, because of the effect they've had in my own life. Like I said at the top of this, that an interview changed my life. You know, interviews are a very important bellwether of our financial and economic liberty, especially as women. So if you are a woman that's annoyed that you have to go into a job interview, let me remind you that it wasn't it was less than 50 years ago that women weren't really interviewed because we weren't interviewing. We weren't getting paid for our work. We weren't doing jobs. And the job interview is only 120 years old, 100 years old.

And this is an important part of our economy. Does it have flaws? Absolutely. But if it goes away, that's a problem. And for hundreds of thousands of years, we didn't have job interviews because jobs were based on birthright or indentured servitude. So the fact that we have this is incredible. So let's make it the best thing that it can be. Let's innovate it, and let's enjoy this process of participating in someone choosing us. And guess what? We also get to choose where we interview and where we decide.

And if they make you an offer, you get to decide if you're going to accept it or decline it. That's, that's revolutionary in history. We've never been here before, and I don't want to lose sight of how incredible that is, especially for women and people of color. It's incredible.

Lisa Virtue:

What a great point you make. I love that. It's really looking at interviews as freedom.

Anna Papalia:

Yes. It's the ultimate economic liberty, especially for women and people of color that have been historically kept out of these markets. So, yes. Do we have a long way ahead? And yes. Is it wrought with problems? Yes. But is it incredible? And we've never been here before. Yeah, absolutely. And if it goes away and if AI starts taking over all of our jobs and no one's getting interviewed, that's a bigger problem than what we have now.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. I love it. Let's stop complaining so much and, like, embrace it a little bit more. I want to circle back to something you mentioned, too, because I hear this a lot and want to make sure listeners understand what the interview is versus the resume. Like, the resume is getting you the interview. Right. And then once you're in the interview, so many things here we could unpack, but just really briefly, especially when it comes to government or corporations that have very kind of robotic questions. There are some panels out there that you have to review what's on your resume.

Otherwise, they can't count it in the interview. And so having that myth like, well, everyone read my resume that's here on the interview panel. First of all, not everyone maybe did. A lot of them probably can't remember it. Right. They might not have it in front of them. They might be scrambling through their day like we're talking about. Not everyone's good at interviewing either.

Might be scrambling through their day, not remember who you were on paper. So making sure that in that interview, you're also bringing things up in the resume and not again, getting stuck, like, well, that was on my resume. Why are they asking me about that? I hear that so often from job seekers, they get this, like, little chip on their shoulder, like, I shouldn't have to say it if they read my resume. What would you say to that?

Anna Papalia:

It's the same thing as the excuse of, like, I do better on the spot. This is a, this is a problem of not wanting to participate in the process. I've had clients come to me and tell me this. In fact, I did a social media video that went pretty viral when I talked about the things that you should never say in an interview. And one of them was, it's on my resume and you don't even have to say that. Sometimes, sometimes it comes across in your attitude. I would never, ever, ever assume anything in an interview to all the points that you just made. They could be busy.

They could not care. They probably don't want to hire you. I go as a charmer, go into an interview wanting to make this person my friend, and they are going to like me whether they like it or not, by the end of that interview. And, like, everything else is going to come through that and I am going to sell myself. I'm going to tell them who I am. And even if it's repetitive, slightly, like, people need to hear information more than once or twice. So I think it's just a problem of not wanting to participate in the process. And those are feelings that you got to unpack and work through outside of the interview because we're humans and we have a lot going on and we need you to talk to us about who you are and what you want.

And we may ask you the same question a few times, and the hiring manager, manager or the hiring panel may repeat a few things and you do, too. You know, it's interesting to me, too, that people really want a lot of sensitivity from hiring managers for job seekers, but they don't extend that same courtesy to hiring managers. It's fascinating to me, and it's not a hard line between job Seeker and hiring manager. You could be a job seeker one day and then hiring a couple weeks later, but we don't extend the same courtesy to both sides of the table.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, and like you were saying earlier, the flip side, I see this, too, where people, if they're in leadership and they are in those interview panels and they're hiring a lot of times. Those are some of the worst people that when they go to market and they interview on the other side, they may make all sorts of assumptions. Well, I've done, I interview people all the time. I know what it takes. And then they don't do the work like you're saying, and then they bomb it. Right. So I think that's another thing to really point out is whether you have experience hiring and interviewing on the side of the employer. You still need to do the work and you still need to practice on the other side when you're going up for an interview for yourself.

Yeah.

Anna Papalia:

Oh, I have lots of executive clients, CEO's, CFO's, cmos, that are almost more terrified than most of the mid level job seekers for a lot of reasons, because power insulates you. And if you have been in an executive for a while, a lot of people say yes to you quite frequently. And I think partly they hire me because they know I'm not just going to say, oh, you're doing a great job. I'm gonna be like, whoa, you know, we gotta work on this interview answer. And a lot of them, to be honest, their interview answers are terrible. Worse than some of my college students, because they're not trying and they haven't had to for a while, they at least know and they're practicing, which is great. That's all you need. That's all you need to get better at interviewing, to know that you could possibly do this better, have some self awareness and practice.

This is, this is not rocket science. It's not like this is something that is really difficult to understand. An interview is a set of questions about you. The more you know yourself, the better you'll do. So the best thing you can do ahead of an interview is to work on your self awareness, your self knowledge, facilitate, and just ask yourself basic interview questions. Tell me about yourself. Where do you see yourself in five years? What are your strengths and weaknesses? Why do you want to work here? Why should we hire you? Those are literally all questions about you and working on, how do I talk about myself? How do I own that? How do I feel worthy of this position? How do I own my side of the table? That's all stuff you might have to work out in therapy too, to be honest. Right? So it's not just like, okay, I see myself here in five years.

It's talking about it with confidence, being vulnerable. A lot happens in a job interview that, that makes everyone very nervous. Hiring managers included. Hiring managers are nervous in interviews because they have to make a hire that all of their peers are going to see. They have to spend budget money, maybe go out of a budget for someone who's a big hire. They want to do it correctly. They want to be a good boss. There's nerves on both sides of the table, 100%.

Lisa Virtue:

And what you're also talking about when it comes to understanding yourself and practicing, it's, it's also getting that feedback. Like you mentioned, like people hire you because you're going to be frank with them and you're going to give them that reflection. I see the same with my clients where they come to me and they're like, I say, you know, I'm, can you take feedback? Because I'm going to give it to you and I'm going to give it to you in a kind way, but I want you to really understand how you're coming across. Because all those people in our personal life, they want to be really gentle, or they are biased in what they think of us, or they assume too much because they know us so well. And they're like, that was a great answer when it might be that you didn't even get to the root of the question. So I see that a lot, too. Like, find the right people. Therapy and coaching goes hand in hand so often because usually you're in a major life transition when you're looking for a job, just in general.

Yeah. So unpacking those emotions with the therapist and then practicing the hard work with a coach, I see that. A beautiful marriage of how you can get support through this process. Yeah.

Anna Papalia:

And really, you know, someone commented recently on one of my social media posts when I was telling people, like, if you haven't gotten a job, perhaps you need a therapist. Perhaps you don't need a career coach. Perhaps you need a therapist. People are jumping down my throat in the comments. Like, how dare you tell people? I was like, wait a minute. Therapists and career coaches are different. You know, a therapist you go to to work through these emotions, to have space to reflect, a coach tells you how to do stuff. Therapists don't tell you how to write your resume.

They don't tell you how to answer interview questions and not. And those things are different things. You wouldn't go to the hardware store to buy milk, as they say. So understanding and identifying where you are and what your needs are and who best can help you. And sometimes you discover that once you hire your career coach, like, oh, maybe we pause for a second. I go see a therapist for a little bit or vice versa. But I do believe that obviously, how you perform in an interview has a lot to do with your perspectives, your attitudes around the process, including, obviously, your experience and your perspective on the process. So there's a lot that goes into it, especially if you have some trauma around job interviews or trauma around getting laid off or work.

Perhaps you feel stage fright. You look at this like it's a public speaking. It's not just a conversation, but you can unpack some of those feelings to get to a place where you can be comfortable with the process. I know someone who's worked at the same job for 28 years because she's terrified of interviewing. She's kept herself really small in a job that's really small, comfortable, yet small. All because of this one fear.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, there's so much to that. And what you're also saying really resonates. Like life coaches are another one that is not the same as a career coach that's certified and has experience with this process and will be more of a consultant for you. Right. I see a lot of life coaches that say, I help you with career, but what they do is ask you powerful questions. They're not giving you advice, they're not giving you that feedback. They're really not allowed to based on their certifications. So I think understanding, too, like what kind of person you want to hire or who you're going to be working with, you really need to know those expectations going into it.

So.

Anna Papalia:

And it's okay. It's okay if you need a life coach. It's okay if you need a therapist. Okay if you only need a career coach. Like I said, you know, you just, like, if I know I need milk, I'm not going to go to the hardware store. There's nothing wrong with it. There's nothing wrong with identifying what your qualifications are and your priorities in an interview and how you do it. It's really all about understanding who you are with gratitude and acceptance, not fighting it and leaning into it and then practicing that so it.

You're the best version of you, not some unprepared, nervous, crazy wreck that's not going to be the best.

Lisa Virtue:

Trying to find the right answer, right?

Anna Papalia:

Right. Oh, yeah. Like scrambling on Google. Like, what's the right answer to this interview question? Like, there are more right answers to interview questions than there are bad answers. And that's also what makes this complicated.

Lisa Virtue:

Yes, it's a really good point. I love it. Well, Anna, I know our time is coming to an end. I thank you so much for being here and sharing your wisdom and your research. Like I said, love your book. I highly recommend it for anyone on either side of the table in the interview process. So how can people get a hold of you?

Anna Papalia:

So if you're interested in taking the interview style assessment, to discover your interview style, come to my website, theinterviewology.com. if you'd like to get my book, you can buy that wherever books are sold. It's on Amazon and everywhere. But also, if you just want to get some free tips, follow me on social media. I'm about to hit 1 million followers on TikTok any day now. I have 1.4 million followers on Facebook, Instagram, LinkedIn. So follow me over there. I share quick, actionable, pragmatic tips for you to get better at interviewing so you can change your life.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, and they're fabulous. So I highly recommend that too. Yeah, go follow Anna. Grab her book. Find one of us as a coach if you need some support there. And thank you. Thank you again. I really appreciate your time.

Anna Papalia:

Thank you. It was so fun.