Lisa Virtue:

Carly, welcome. I'm so happy that you're here because we met during the pandemic as mamas trying to navigate all of that. Gosh, it was so. Yeah, it was four years ago now.

Karlee Vincent:

Yeah, absolutely. I can't even believe it. And here we are today.

Lisa Virtue:

Here we are. And I wrote a children's book. Now you've written your masterpiece, which I'm so excited about because you were talking about it back then. And so I'm so proud of you. Just happy that you were able to accomplish that. And I know it's a lot of hard work. So well done. Congratulations.

Karlee Vincent:

Thank you so much. And I just love it when women lift up other women. So thank you for giving me this opportunity to chat with you today and having me as a guest on your podcast. And so we can talk through the book and so many other wonderful things. We have a lot of catching up to do.

Lisa Virtue:

We do. I know we'll use this time for that, too. I love it. And it's true. We can't take it for granted. Women supporting women. You know, it's much of a catchphrases. It seems like it's outdated even at this point.

It's not. It's really. We need each other, so.

Karlee Vincent:

Absolutely.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay, so here we go. Why don't you tell us a little bit about your career journey and anything you want to weave in around breastfeeding and how you got to be where you are today with this book?

Karlee Vincent:

Yeah, absolutely. So my name's Carly. I live in the San Francisco Bay area with my husband, who is a paramedic firefighter. We have two young girls now, which when I started writing my book, I was still breastfeeding. So it's been a long journey from beginning to end. My youngest now will be seven in December, which is wild to me. And my oldest will be ten in August. So they are within.

I feel like each new phase brings something different and unexpected, and it fills me with joy and also makes me want to pull my hair out sometimes. By day, I am a conference manager, so I specialize in sponsorship events, and by night. I love writing. I am a bibliophile at heart. I love reading pretty much anything I can get my hands onto, which is a blessing and a curse, as my husband would say, because all I want to do is read in my spare time.

Lisa Virtue:

But I can't go into bookstores. I know I spend all the money.

Karlee Vincent:

It's dangerous. And after I became a mom and I can go into this a little bit later, stopped reading for quite a while, because I just didn't. I was so tired. I didn't have the time. And the second that that came back, I. It's dangerous. I have way too many books. But so just kind of a career journey that got me to this point, though, is that in 2014, I became a mom to my first daughter.

In 2017, to my. My second daughter. And during that transition, I was one in the transition period of finding a new job. And during my second period of transition, when I had my second daughter, I had just dipped my toe in the water just a little bit with my first because my breastfeeding journey had almost ended by the time I started traveling and breastfeeding. And so I got through that period, and it was relatively quick for the most part. But then in 2017, when I came back into it with my second daughter, I started scratching my head going, wow, why is it. Am I just imagining that it's this hard logistically? Because at the time, I was working for a conference company based in the Bay Area, but we did events all over. So I was doing events in New York, I did events in London.

I was traveling to Portland. You name it, they tried to do an event there. So I was helping organize all of these events and trying to pump and breastfeed because it was just something that I wanted to do as a mom like that. At its core. At my core, I wanted to be able to provide for my daughters in that way. And I understand everybody's journey is very different, but I kind of brush it off for a little bit. And then I had a coworker approach me and say, hey, she had just come back to work after maternity leave. Hey, how did you do it? Because this is really tough.

And so I wrote a letter to HR. We started the conversation around getting some policies updated and changed. And it wasn't just something that happened overnight. It was like a period over a couple of years, I would say, where these policies started to take shape. And by the end of my time with this company, we got breastfeeding spaces at every company conference. So it was a nice transition to see this take shape. But my book, essentially, was that first letter to HR. Then it became a Blog for moms, and then it transformed into what it is Today.

So have to say, it's been quite the journey. I now am a volunteer member for the board of directors for the California Breastfeeding COalition. I love it. Yeah, it's a great organization to be a part of, and so I help with their summit and some other wonderful programs, but I think just keeping the conversation very much Alive because moms need help. You know, moms, women need help. This is one of the most profound ways in my mind to try and lift up those voices. So that was a Little Long winded.

Lisa Virtue:

But thank you so much for all of that. And so you're such a Advocate for yourself and others and change maker, and you continue that effort. That's fantastic. You know a little bit about my story. So I also love the fact that we've already seen an evolution even since we had our children. Right. When we were first breastfeeding. There's so much going on, even here.

I'm in Oregon, and there was even just in the last few years legislature that finally got passed to approve, like, women can breastfeed anywhere, and it's not such a taboo. And, like, there's just these little things. It seems little, but it's profound and so fundamental to humanity that I think once. Once you become a mom and you this, there's this natural just, you know, it's just something that shouldn't be so hard to convince other people about. Right? And like you said, everyone's journey is different. I was only able to breastfeed my daughter for six months because I was working so much, and it just stopped. That was my journey. Right.

Just, I couldn't pump as much as I had been, and so she needed food is one of those things you have to do. But I also felt so proud. It was between six and nine months, actually. I was just also so proud that I could do it for that amount of time. Right. And when there was no information, my doctors, midwives, nobody even said, like, oh, you should start preparing for this. Nobody said any of that. And then all of a sudden, you're at the hospital, and they're trying to latch and like, okay, good luck.

And they leave the room, and I'm like, well, this is a thing. Like, I didn't know how painful it would be. I found out that I was having, um, just, you know, fast milk, apparently. And so that's very painful. Did nobody explain that to me? It took weeks to figure that out. And by then, you know, you're just in tears trying to feed your child, and, gosh, and women are going through this all the time, and it's so taboo to talk about it or to reach out for help. And the lactation consultant at the hospital, I asked for her to come in, and my husband, of course, couldn't help me, but he was trying to be very like, well, do you need. What should I do? I'm like, I don't know what to do.

Karlee Vincent:

What do we do?

Lisa Virtue:

And this is almost nine years ago now. And so when she came in, she made me feel shame.

Karlee Vincent:

Oh, no, that's not the one either.

Lisa Virtue:

No. It was fascinating experience to look back on and just think, gosh, I wish she knew how she was making because, you know, people go into things like that to help, but sometimes people aren't very good at it or they don't get the feedback. And so she was rushing and just basically was there for the baby and not for the mom. And anyways, a strange thing. And so then at my primary, finally I got the support I needed, but it took days and days and then a couple of weeks before things started to settle a little. And then it took, I think, a good month for us to finally get comfortable then it was beautiful. But for, very true.

Karlee Vincent:

I think a lot of moms underestimate the amount of time it takes where one, your body is going through so many changes. So you're experiencing shifts and hormones. You just had a baby. You're exhausted. There are different physiological things happening with your milk coming in, for instance, that colostrum that babies get right away, and then the development of the milk in the like, coming weeks after that. It's a lot that your body takes on, and moms aren't really prepared for that, what to expect. You're just, you're just in the zone of trying to figure out what it means to come into this new identity, becoming a mother, expected to know exactly what's going to happen to your body and then get to know this little tiny human that you just had.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And so many people brush it off, too, I think, societally, like moms or my mom had five kids, and, oh, you'll figure it out. Kind of this thing of like, oh, you'll become a mom. You'll figure it out. There's no playbook. There's no. But really, especially our generation. It's like, well, give me some wisdom, please.

Just tell me, I'll figure it out. Like, I would like to have some kind of starting point. So I think that's what's beautiful about your book, that you're helping to do that. Give some wisdom, give some stories. Also, advocacy like that is huge.

Karlee Vincent:

It is. Advocacy can show up in so many different ways. One, advocating for yourself. Right. So understanding. And there's something that you said, too, Lisa, about showing back up to your doctor to get another somebody to help because you heard from your first experience with the lactation consultant that wasn't the right fit for you. And so your persistence was able to lead you to having that beautiful experience. So one, being conscious of the facts, like, hey, what's going on? Asking questions, it's important and very normal.

So being your own self advocate, being clear on your questions. In my case, too, I had advocates come from the woodworks. I had my family helping advocate for me while I was traveling. When I went back to work, my employer, I had a lot of conversations, and they ended up being advocates in the end. But we had to get on the right path together in order to make that happen. And the other area for allies, and as I think I called in my book, Bosom buddy or a lactation friend work. When you're trying to juggle being on the clock or going into a meeting, or maybe you are a waitress trying to sneak away for 20 minutes, that coworker or your friend at work can really step in and help provide aid when you're just not 100% sure if you've got this. So work, work allies are a huge help.

And then I was having a conversation, actually, with my daughter's music teacher the other day, which I found so encouraging. She's not a mom, but she works with a lot of families, and she's reading my book right now.

Lisa Virtue:

Love it.

Karlee Vincent:

And she made this comment to me, which I am so happy she said something, but she said this. I wasn't aware, as I can be a better ally now, because I was not aware that moms actually went through all of these things. I knew there was a lot that moms go through, but this is eye opening for me. So with my book, one of the things that I really want to stress is that it's not just for moms. Yes. Like, my goal is to help orient moms, but it's also for those allies, the employers, really continuing the conversation in a way that expands to make space for moms and not having them shoulder all of the responsibility for figuring it out, because sometimes it's not always figureoutable. It's so true.

Lisa Virtue:

Well, and it's. I've got so much to say about this because, first of all, the bosom buddies, I love that. And I worked at a fitness and athletic social club when I was breastfeeding. And, um, my bosom buddy was the nutritionist. She was fantastic. Who had just finished breastfeeding one of her children, and then there was some overlap with us with her second. And so she had gone through it already, was going through it again at the same time as me, and especially because of her nutritional background. She said to me at one point, she just was, like, putting me at ease.

She was asking me how things were going, and we just had this great conversation in the locker room because we were, like, seeing each other when it was breastfeeding time, not breastfeeding time, pumping time. Right. Like in one little place all the employees could use. And so that does make such a difference to even just have someone to talk to that can kind of put you at ease. Because my mom wasn't there for that time to help me. You know, I didn't have, and a lot of my friends either weren't going to have children or had children already. And so I was in this kind of no man's land. So those colleagues were very supportive.

HR was very supportive. But there were men that were in management that actually tried. I cannot believe I'm going to say this, but this happened. So at my, at the club, my direct manager at the time was part of a committee that was doing remodels of all the locker rooms. And Hr was like, we need a lactation room. We need to have somewhere employees can go. And so they were looking at remodeling the employee locker room for women, and they were figuring out where they could put that, that I was not even, you know, pregnant or anything at the time, so I didn't know I would have a baby in the next two years. He came to me at one point and he had this drawing, and he, it was a schematic of the new locker room.

He was like, well, Hr is saying this or that, but, you know, I'm going to cross that off because I think they need to do this in this locker room. Okay, so male manager talking about a female locker room and contradicting what HR is saying. It was just, to me, I just kind of looked at him in shock of, like, he was trying to get my opinion or backing on it, and I'm like, oh, I don't, I don't know, like, how many women would be breastfeeding? I don't know, but Hr would know that at the time. I didn't know that would be me soon. Right. And so, yeah, two years later, I'm using that every day.

Karlee Vincent:

Yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

And there were times where I couldn't, I'd have to be outside the curtain because we had more than one person breastfeeding at the, at that time. And so I just kept thinking, like, how nutty was this? He was trying to get rid of that room, but these things happen.

Karlee Vincent:

Yeah. Yes, exactly. And I think the sad Reality, too, is that a lot of these spaces, for example, in your situation, are not created for women in mind, not created for families in mind, or. Or a safe space for pumping, that is, in a bathroom. And it's important for people to realize that their Reality is not somebody else's reality.

Lisa Virtue:

Ask the people who actually need it. Right.

Karlee Vincent:

Exactly, 100%. And I think one of the biggest questions I pose in my book, for a lot of, um, people that I interview was, do you believe breastfeeding is an act of social justice? And so one of the core themes that I've taken out of a lot of these conversations is that one. Yes, it is, from the extent that the conversation is so much bigger than just breastfeeding alone, because it has everything to do with women being able to have a safe space for their bodies, to be able to make those choices without having decisions made for them, especially in the case that you saw at the locker room. A very small example, but it extends further into the conversation around career setbacks, stalling the motherhood penalty, if you will. And I'm sure you've heard plenty around that.

Lisa Virtue:

But I help women every day with figuring out how to get back into the workforce.

Karlee Vincent:

Yep, every day. And it's just amazing to me that something which seems so small actually has such a larger impact on so many other conversations. And it's great to be able to hear and experience that and be open to that conversation, for sure.

Lisa Virtue:

And I think back to what you're saying about advocacy, too, and having people like, I hope there's people listening to this podcast that either aren't going to have children or their allies as well, because just like reading your book, because just to understand another perspective and understand what's going on around you, I see a big trend, especially on social media, of younger, typically younger people that are like, oh, these people with their maternity leave, it's still, you know, still prevalent. And people, well, that's their choice. Their choice, their choice. Fair enough. However, when you look at even just a woman's body recovering, then you add on breastfeeding, connecting with a child, all these things, again, that are like the basis for humanity. And we're rolling our eyes at it.

Karlee Vincent:

Which is so devastating in so many ways that it's not taken more seriously. And as you mentioned at the beginning of our conversation, we're seeing small progress and change as far as policies, having better access to lactation spaces. For example, when, back in 2017, when I was traveling to New York, or 2018, I should say, I had a really unfortunate incident in the JFK airport. But since then, laws have changed for airports, in particular, an expansion, and there has been an expansion of the Pump act, which really helps to protect rights within the workplace for pumping peoples. And from a, from one, first of all, I am not a lawyer, so.

Lisa Virtue:

If you're listening to this and you're.

Karlee Vincent:

Like, oh, what is that? Please go check out the laws around the pump act and then the expansion of the Pump act. And then there are also some apps now which weren't available, or they were just being developed when I was breastfeeding, about where you can find a place during your travels. So with, yeah, so it's wonderful to be able to have that. But when we're talking about the maternity leave and how people are rolling their eyes at that, so many studies actually show that when maternity leave is provided, medical bills go down, that infants health is much better. Long term mental health improves the overall costs from the employer. If they were to provide an extended leave, actually, they make that money back like it was never gone. So common sense shows that this should be a benefit for moms and families, but the disconnection there is not like something isn't connecting. And so part of this conversation also leads into that where employers should be mindful of the fact that employees are more likely to come back to work for them if they are supported, if they are seen as human beings.

So. Yes, exactly. We need to keep that going, Lisa. It's so important.

Lisa Virtue:

I agree. And there's definitely a disconnect, too, kind of generationally, and I was one when I didn't know if I would have a biological child. And so I remember early in my career, just kind of not understanding enough about what was needed. Right. I mean, obviously, I didn't even understand about breastfeeding when I had my daughter, and I had chosen that. And whether it's a choice or not, that you're having children, just looking at it societally, like you're saying, there's so many benefits that studies show and that we can glean from it all, that it's very impactful. And I was just running a calculation really quick for myself because 80% of women, by the time they're in their forties, will biologically have a child still in the United States. Even though that number seems like it's going down, it's still hovering around 80% and over 50%.

I think we're at like 52%. Don't quote me on this. People can fact check for me. That would be great. But the latest statistic I saw was probably from 2022. It was like 52% of the workforce is women. Well, that puts us right around 42% of all of the american workforce are women that have born a child. That is a lot of people.

Karlee Vincent:

That is, there are so, so many people.

Lisa Virtue:

It's a lot. So I just know that this, this means so much to so many. So pump or bust. Your book is a great testament to how we're furthering that conversation. We're getting the education out there, just things that shouldn't be so taboo. You know, our daughters, thank goodness they know the words for genitals now and talk about boobies and how it supports their children. Like, what a shift, right? Even in just the past two generations. Like, we're actually talking about it.

So kudos to you for seeing that gap and helping to fill it.

Karlee Vincent:

Yes, thank you. With that, I have to say. I have to say thank you to all of the people that contributed. Lisa, I talked to you at one point for your story to be added. And I had talked to a lot of industry experts, such as Mamava, one of the co founders of Mamava, Sasha Meyer, and Kate Turgeon from Milk Stork. And I have some HR specialists in different industries. The perspectives matter, because it's not. It's not a single sided conversation.

And I, through this, wanted to provide the framework for moms and families to be able to create structure around areas that a lot of times don't have any structure at all. So those voices of moms like yourself and those industry experts really helped in terms of pointing me in the right direction, of making areas of my book stronger. So I'm so grateful for everybody that has shared their stories along the way and just the conversations that I've had. And so, too, to that point in my book, I have a lot of examples of conversations to have with nannies, getting the childcare, um, figured out what. What you should be getting for pumping in the office or traveling or looking at, um, what do you do when your body's healing or weaning? Um. So I also talked with, um, doctor Stephanie Hack, who she is a gynecologist. Her insight was just fabulous in terms of some of those most frequently burning questions in the back of my mind. And so I really hope that as moms and families and employers and whoever picks up my book reads it, they each can find something that can broaden their perspective, help them along their journey, and really help them feel like they're not alone, because motherhood can be very, very lonely, especially when you're up in the wee hours cuddling your little ones at two or three in the morning.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And long ago were the days women had community physically close to them. Now it's so much more like virtually, and so it feels even more lonely when you're in that very physical environment.

Karlee Vincent:

Exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

I want to read a quick quote from one of the reviews on your book because I think this audience will resonate with it. And I also would say you want to encourage partners to read it too, right? The person not going through the breastfeeding. Yeah, that would be great. So this one just resonated with me because we're talking also about career on this podcast is Carly's insightful exploration of the delicate dance between motherhood and professional life resonated deeply. The authenticity with which you tackle the challenges faced by new mothers in the corporate realm is both refreshing and inspiring. You delivered a profound celebration of resilience, a tribute to the strength inherent in balancing the demands of work and the joys of motherhood. Your words will undoubtedly serve as a guiding light, fostering a sense of community among women who share this unique intersection of roles. So well done.

Karlee Vincent:

I love it. I haven't read all of my reviews yet, and this is one that is hitting me with a fresh perspective. So thank you for sharing that.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, for sure. I just thank you for sharing all your wisdom. I'm so glad you're here on the podcast, sharing with my audience too, which majority are mamas and the rest are very willing to learn and listen. So. Yeah, absolutely. Well, before we depart, is there anything else as far as tips or recommendations you have for the working mama or someone who's even contemplating having a baby and this whole thing about breast pump pumping, breastfeeding, et cetera, and what they should do?

Karlee Vincent:

Yeah, great question. I think one of the biggest things, first and foremost, especially for moms that are soon to be moms or people considering having kids, just take it one day at a time. Your journey is very individual and unique. The little one that you have is so different than Every Other. It's a whole human being that you just have and with their own unique and very individual personality. So just keep that in mind and your body is going through so much change. And so it's really important to be gentle with yourself during those big periods of transition. For moms that are in the Workplace that are navigating through this, maybe right now as we're speaking, I think if you are in a position where you need to talk to your employer, you're not getting the support that you feel like it's important to take a step back and be clear on what your asks are.

Make sure you don't come in hot to a conversation. Take a deep breath, try and outline what it is that you need, and just be aware that conversations around change in the workplace with your employer, your coworkers, it takes time. It's not an overnight conversation, and you don't need to be in a bathroom pumping, that's for sure. So just again, check out that pump the pump act. Be aware of what your rights are. If you are in the unfortunate situation where your employer is not helping you out, you do have rights to be able to either press charges. I hope it doesn't get to that point and you're able to have that conversation. But there are ways to protect your rights in the workforce.

And it's really important to note that while it's hard for you in that moment in time, by you having those conversations and the change you're creating change for other moms that'll come after you. So I think that's just even though it doesn't feel like a lot to ask for the space to change or to have access to an electrical socket or have milk stork, for instance, while you're traveling, asking that question can change the trajectory for other moms that come after you for sure.

Lisa Virtue:

There's just so much ignorance, too. So hiring managers, even some HR people, might not know. So, yeah, making sure you don't assume and like, go up to them and say, I'm not sure you're aware, but this is the pump act. And whatever your local guidelines are, too, I'm a huge proponent of at work. How can we best communicate our needs in a way that doesn't affront someone, but can be a mutual partnership at first. Of course, if it does need to escalate, then by all means do what is within your rights. But yeah, I think that's a good way to approach it, is have that conversation and bring it forward. And maybe bring the book, bring pump or bust to your HR department.

They might need it.

Karlee Vincent:

Exactly. Exactly. 100%.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, love it. Well, Carly, how can people order your book?

Karlee Vincent:

Great question. You can go onto Amazon.com and type in my name or the book title pump or bust. Then you can also order it through the publisher, which is a small women's health publisher, per Claris Press. They have my book for sale as well. And then if you are interested in checking out what's coming next for myself, you can visit carlyvincent.com I'll have updates about my book events that are happening, podcasts, experiences that you can check out and generally give you updates from, from that perspective as well.

Lisa Virtue:

Perfect. We'll put the link below. Thank you so much, Carly. Thanks, Lisa.

Karlee Vincent:

I appreciate the time.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, that traveling milk truck is also my favorite Instagram handle, I think when we first met, I just remember loving.

Karlee Vincent:

It when you know, you know, right?

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, that's true. Thank you so much.

Karlee Vincent:

Yes, thanks, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue:

So I'm here with Carly Vincent, fellow author and mama, and we just wanted to let you know that you have an opportunity soon to come join us for our live event and win free copies of our books. Mine is Krima, a children's book illustrated beautifully, to talk with your children about mom's work, changes at home.

Karlee Vincent:

And Carly, my book is pump or bust, a new mama's guide to office policy, politics, breast health, and pumping on the road. And you can order it on Amazon or Proclaris Press, and it's to help you get back to work after maternity leave.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. My hard copies on Amazon. Also, you can dm me for a free virtual copy, but if you'd like to win a copy too, join us for our live event. And it's a great Mother's Day gift for either yourself or a friend.

Karlee Vincent:

Exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

We'll see you soon.