Lisa Virtue:

Jessica, welcome. I love talking to you. We've been talking for a few years now as fellow career coaches and have done other events. So I'm just. I am pleased to have you on this conversation.

Jessica Aebi:

Likewise. I feel like the pleasure is all mine. I always love talking to you, too. I always learn something by talking to you and bouncing ideas off of you. I feel like today is going to be no different.

Lisa Virtue:

Oh, I love that I'm mutually the same way. Yes. Feel the same. Awesome. So we're going to dive into this topic about pleasing ourselves with an aligned career instead of everyone else around us for all of these people pleasers that we relate to. But before we get into that, I'd love to hear more about your career trajectory, how you got to where you are today and a little bit of your background. Go ahead.

Jessica Aebi:

Sure. Yeah. Let me just start with some of the basics. So I live and work in San Francisco and I help passionate leaders identify a career with intention and purpose so that people find the fulfillment that they're looking for. That's what I do. But it took a while to get here. I will tell you, I worked in a lot of different roles and industries and kind of bounced around quite a bit. When you look at my resume, it's like you really have to have like a connect the dots, like paint by numbers kind of thing just because it's.

It is so varied. But what brought me into becoming a career coach was just feeling like I always knew that there was something out there for me or something better, something more aligned, something that wasn't about pleasing other people, but really about pleasing me and being able to give to the world what I felt like was deep inside of me, but I just didn't have a chance to do in my career. And then I. I guess in 2019, I became certified and then started my business and started coaching from there. So I just hit my five year anniversary. Congrats being a professional career coach. And it's funny is that even after I became a career coach, I really had to calibrate my own trajectory as a coach. Because when you get started, you don't know exactly who your ideal client is, who you know that you're uniquely qualified to help or uniquely poised to help.

There are people that resonate with you and that you resonate with. Because in the beginning, I just wanted to help everyone. That was kind of my, that was my mantra. I don't need an ideal client. I just want to help everyone. And so I feel like today's conversation is so apt because it was it really lines up with not just how I became or why I became a career coach, but what's happened since then.

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Yeah. That's wonderful. So pleasing yourself with even just giving yourself clarity when you have your own business.

Jessica Aebi:

So powerful. It really is. It really is. Because something that I had realized a couple of years ago is that I brought my job into my business. The habits that I had as an employed person, working for other people as a w two, getting that steady paycheck, I, you know, I realized that, yeah. Like, there's just so much that I learned from that, and I just felt like bringing your job into your business is not really. It wasn't pleasing me. It wasn't fulfilling to me, and I felt I eventually got really burned out, and then I was questioning whether or not I wanted to continue doing this.

I mean, I've. I've been so close to pressing the quit button so many times, and luckily, I never did. But I think that, you know, I've been learning that there's a difference between giving up and quitting. So, like, giving up would. That would feel like getting a job. That would feel like just getting a part time thing to make ends meet. That would look like maybe getting. Having a gig job just to bring in some money.

I'm not saying that for everyone, it would be for them giving up, because it's sometimes people's only choice at the time. But for me, knowing that I intentionally chose to work for myself, doing that would feel like I was kind of giving up versus quitting. And so I feel like, in a way, I have quit, but not quit being a career coach, but quit. I I've quit coaching in a certain way, or I've quit running my business in a certain way that wasn't serving me. So I'm still on this journey. I don't know if I'm ever going to find perfection. I don't think that that's a possibility. But I'm definitely a lot closer today than I was one year ago.

Lisa Virtue:

That's great that you're finding that clarity. Just. And you're also accepting the fact that it is a journey which is, like, all of our careers, right? Especially us ladies. I can't remember the stats, and maybe I'll put it in the notes, but I saw a study the other day that was talking about how women change careers, I think, four times more than men, something like that. And it's because of all the different, you know, nuances as women that we have, whether it's life caregiving, or it has to do with our gender and how that shows up in the workplace. And I just kind of different chapters we all go through, whether we have children or not. There's hormonal changes, there's aging changes, like, there's all sorts of stigmas and things that we deal with, so it's not surprising to hear it. But then when women are on a trajectory that they feel is so straight lined and then they feel like changing it or they feel like modifying it, it can definitely take a turn of something's wrong with me.

Right. But in reality, it's actually pretty normal. It's just, how do you do that in a way that will still give you the resources for you and your family that you need and will still keep you fulfilled. And also love what you said about bringing the job into your business. And I see that a lot with, especially us ladies that, like, move up into the career. So even if you're in a corporate job, similar philosophy applies, right?

Jessica Aebi:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue:

You're an individual contributor and you're becoming a leader or you're advancing to more strategic leadership. We tend to still carry what we are used to or what we used to do as those habits into that next role.

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely. That is such a great insight and great comparison because that does happen all the time. And then it makes it difficult to, it honestly makes it difficult to sustain both being a leader and an individual contributor at the same time. Like, that's something that can lead to burnout. It can also keep you at a certain level that you just have a hard time surpassing beyond because you're just so used to doing some of the invisible work that doesn't get promoted. Someone calls it the glue work. I can't remember. It was a client of mine who was telling me about this, and he's like, oh, it's the glue work.

And if you look it up, you'll probably find some articles on this topic. But it's the glue work. It tends to be those kinds of things that keeps teams together, keeps people happy, keeps things operationally flowing. But you can do that glue work when it's beyond, when it's not quite at your level, you can sort of find yourself doing that, but then you can also do that again, you know, as a leader, sort of reversing it down to the, like a lower level.

Lisa Virtue:

Sounds very feminine.

Jessica Aebi:

It does, doesn't it does. People who really keep things together and keep things organized, keep things humming, keep the clients happy. And not to say that it's only a feminine trait, but that you know, and there are plenty of people across gender spectrums who have that trait.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Jessica Aebi:

But I can say just for. If I were to say what I've empirically seen, I definitely see it as a feminine trait, for sure.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. Just like anything, there's a spectrum, for sure, and different people relate. But I'm just picturing in my head, the visual that's coming to me is like back when people were more nomadic and tribal. And so the women and the children are around the campfire, and the men are off hunting, and the women are just making sure everything's buzzing. And that glue work, like you said. So that's what I'm imagining, which is why I'm feeling it's a very feminine kind of ingrained thing that our gender has had placed upon us and also, a lot of times, naturally gravitate to, which leads into our conversation about pleasing other people.

Jessica Aebi:

Right.

Lisa Virtue:

So when we are maybe naturally inclined to do that or expected to do it, and not every woman is a caregiver or someone that is that glue. Right. And so we need to be really honest with ourselves. Is this even apply to me? But I used to think I was not a people pleaser. So funny. This was years ago. I was working with a coach of myself and talking about strengths at work and things, and she made a comment about people pleasing, and I was like, I wouldn't describe. You know, I didn't relate to it.

I wouldn't describe myself that way. Yeah. Because I, like, stand up for myself. Like, I had just had different connotations. So I'm curious what your definition when you see people pleaser. What. What does that mean? What's your definition?

Jessica Aebi:

Well, I think, first of all, I just want to say I had someone that I was working with who said, I'm a total people pleaser or a recovering people pleaser. And I felt like, what is that exactly? Me. This is years ago. This is before I even really knew what that was. I think part of it is being extremely accommodating so you can accommodate beyond your own comfort. I think that the way that I would describe a people pleaser is somebody who gives beyond their capacity or comfort level for the benefit of others, whether the others ask for that or not. There's a real strength here in intuiting what people need, anticipating someone's needs, seeing the elephant in the room. Like, there's a lot of really great strengths here, but when you give beyond your capacity and it then detracts from your energy or depletes your energy, or if it results in not getting the career growth that you're looking for.

That's when it can really become a problem.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, I realized, too, like, resentment was a big thing for me. And I realized, okay, maybe I'm not doing it. Like, someone that would be very vocal about, oh, I'm a people pleaser, is that person that just has a hard time saying no all the time. And for me, I realized it showed up in certain aspects of my life where I had not built that boundary system or something internally, where I was starting to resent that I said yes to something. Right. Or I did resent it later, and I was like, why am I resenting that? Like, I'm the one who said yes to it. Why am I so angry at that other person? It's not like I could have said no, you know? So, like, the boundary part for me is where it really flared up and showed me that I was doing it. And then I would have to process, like, why did I do that? Oh, it's because I felt like they would like me more.

Like, you got to dig deep because you don't want to admit that. Most people don't. There are some people that are just very vocal and admit it readily, but a lot of us are like, that's not me. I don't want to admit that. You have to dig, like, why did I actually do that? Why did I volunteer for that? Was it for my benefit or was it for both of our benefit? Like, you can get on board with things like that, but if it's purely for the other person and then you're frustrated and you're resentful of it. Okay, now we're getting into this, like, people pleaser tendency, right?

Jessica Aebi:

Yes. Well, I think there is everything that you just said, and something else that occurred to me is that sometimes you think that doing this is effective. You think that by noticing the elephant in the room, making sure everyone is happy, doing that glue work, or being that rescuer, even, that it's going to be effective and it's going to lead to the change that you're looking for, the growth you're looking for or in your career, but it actually can work in the opposite way. So sometimes it's even recognizing, just. Just knowing that actually doing that invisible work is not the kind of thing that gets promoted. Because there are a lot of people who might think I worked ten times harder than my colleagues and that person got promoted. And I think that there's an element of discernment to it. Like, if I'm going to promote someone, I want to make sure that they're really, that they're a discerning person, that they have really good judgment.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Jessica Aebi:

And if I see them constantly throwing themselves under the bus because they feel like it's something that they have to do for other people and that they have to do in order to be worthy, I may not want them in that leadership position because I feel like they will not excel because they will be trying to please people versus doing what is right for that leadership position, what's best for the company.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. So let's talk about what can people do if this is resonating and they're thinking, oh, am I a people pleaser? Or they know they are and they're looking for that next best fit or that opportunity? What are some of your tips for? How do you please yourself and also show others that you are willing to be helpful? I guess there's balance, too, right?

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely. I think there are a couple of little tactics that I like to think about. Then there's going to be some deeper stuff, the inner work, the figuring out what your roadmap looks like versus what somebody else's roadmap looks like. But a couple of things that I think about are related to, like, one, when it comes to saying yes or no, you know, you want to say yes, you want to be that team player. You want to be the go to person, you want to be the subject matter expert. All of the, all of these things are great. It's just that, you know, when that, when things become weaknesses, it is either that a strength is overused or used in the wrong time. Used during the wrong time.

Lisa Virtue:

Like my shoulder. One side of my shoulder was working overtime and the other side got weak and now I have a torn shoulder.

Jessica Aebi:

That's okay. Well, that's like, that's a perfect example. Analogy really relates right now. Oh, my gosh. But so, like, if you, if you, if you are good at these things, you are that you are a team player. You really do care about the outcomes and you care about people's experiences. These are all great things. It's just that when they are used, overused or used in the wrong at the wrong time, like, that can make things a little bit difficult.

And so I think about the idea of when you're, when, you know, you have to say yes or no to something. I think that there, that is often, it feels like a binary to people, and it's like, it's just really hard for me to say no.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Jessica Aebi:

So I think one way to think about it. Is negotiating the yes? What if you did say yes? How might this benefit your career? How might you use this, this opportunity to get a promotion? How might you. How might you actually just do it from, like, a day to day level? Maybe you need to give up something else that's on your priority list in order to fit this thing in. So maybe there's a way for you to negotiate the yes versus just saying no. Because if you knee jerk and say no, well, that might also defeat you, as well as knee jerking to say yes.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. So I'm really hearing you say, take a beat. You don't have to reply right away, which is what people pleasers do, right? We're like, oh, yeah, sure, or, I'll do that. And then you think about it after you said yes.

Jessica Aebi:

Exactly. And when you've recognized that you're a people pleaser and that you say yes all the time, well, what's the inclination then? It's to say no. No, I've got too much on my plate. No, I can't take this on. No, somebody else should do it. However, if you don't take that beat and you don't understand what saying yes actually means or could potentially mean or negotiate the terms of that proposal, whatever that may be, then you're kind of. You're not really winning either way.

Lisa Virtue:

Right? What does that sound like for someone that maybe this is new to them? How do you take a beat? What. What would that sound like at work?

Jessica Aebi:

I like the idea of taking a beat so much because, you know, oftentimes you feel like you just. You have to. You have to right now, you have to say yes or no. Like, it's a. It's an imperative sometimes. You know, it depends on really, who. Who it's with. Or is this a client who's asking for the moon and the stars and you're not really sure.

You've got to talk to your company, your leaders, about that. That is kind of an easier way of taking a beat versus just saying yes to something. But when it's a manager or another leader at the company, you could say things like, you know, that sounds really interesting, and I would love to talk to you more about that. Can we sketch that out together in a meeting separately? I don't want to just jump into something or not give it my best by saying yes to it right now. So let's. Let's kind of sketch it out and see what we can come up with. I don't know. I mean, that's one way of of doing it.

I'm sure that, you know, depending on the dynamic and the relationship with people, the way that you would communicate might be a little bit different.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Jessica Aebi:

I've seen really the general.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay. I like that. For sure. When you're especially, like, if you're in a team meeting, this happens a lot, right? Someone kind of throws a. To you, like, oh, you're going to be doing that now, or, hey, Jessica, could you take that on? And now you're on the spot. That's like the worst, isn't it?

Jessica Aebi:

Oh, my gosh.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Jessica Aebi:

I've been there so many times.

Lisa Virtue:

I really like this recommendation you have of, oh, that sounds really interesting. Can we please talk about that? Like, you're not saying yes and you're not saying, but you need more information and you need time to process what just, what just happened.

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely. And what does yes mean? Or what if somebody, somebody volunteers you for something in that meeting? It's not like, oh, hey, Lisa, can you take this on?

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Jessica Aebi:

It's more like, oh, Lisa, go ahead and run with this.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Voluntold.

Jessica Aebi:

So you've been voluntold. Yes. It's, it's. And in that moment, if you were to fight about it in the middle of a, of a meeting, it's not going to make your boss look good. It's not going to make anyone look good either.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. All of a sudden, there's all this friction that you could have avoided by just kind of punting more than saying no. Like, why do I have to do it?

Jessica Aebi:

Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Jessica Aebi:

So, like, let's say you're, let's say someone voluntels you for something in front of a bunch of people, to push back in that moment probably is not the most appropriate time to do it. And maybe even pushing back in the way that you might think of pushing back is not the appropriate response. Maybe there isn't really a way for you to not take that on. Maybe you have to. Your job is hinging on this in some way. So if that's the case, what you could do is you could book a meeting with your, with the leader who volunteered you for something after the fact to say, hey, I want to work with you to sketch this out a little bit so that I'm not, whatever it is, I'm not undermining the potential of this project, or I'm not depleting myself, or I'm not working on too many things at one time. Whatever it is, that could be the reason why you're doing this. You don't even have to say that.

While you're, while you're booking this kind of meeting, you just say, let's discuss this. You know, I want to make sure that we're timing it right. And my understanding of what this requires is accurate because a lot of times, you know, one thing that a people pleaser might do is assume the largeness of something or the in depthness of something. So they think that in order to do it right, it means that they have to spend six weeks on it. When your boss is just like, no, no, no. Just real quick, sketch it out. Like, no more than a couple of hours.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, for sure.

Jessica Aebi:

So learning what, what's the level of detail here that's needed? Who are the. The people that I should be talking to? What are the resources? Do I have to find this out or to work on this? How much time do you think I should look for this kind of thing? When is this. When is this due?

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Right. I'll add another one. Yeah. Success. Exactly. I was going to add, like, what. What kind of outcome are you looking for? Because a lot of times that's not figured out, and then a manager or leader might actually spin.

I've seen this so many times where it's like, okay, what's the deliverable and successful outcome you're looking for from me? And if they can't define that, then they realize it's not worth your time to even do it. So I've seen so many. Right. They spin out of it and they're like, oh, never mind. Right now is probably not the right time. Right. Like, let me figure that out first.

Jessica Aebi:

Exactly. And I think that that's. That's just good communication in general at work, regardless of whether or not you identify as a people pleaser or an accommodator or if you don't, or maybe you have some tendencies. Either way, it's just good communication to understand what other people mean, where they're coming from, what their vision of success might look like, how much time you should be spending on something. How important is this? Should I drop everything right now and just work on this? Or is this the kind of thing that I can get once I'm done with items one, two, and three?

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Yeah. And I know from being a former director myself and also having my own experience with this and clients now that I work with, I've seen such success, too. When they start to have, they build a muscle of, okay. I feel overwhelmed with all the tasks I have, overwhelmed with everything I'm doing. And I don't feel like I've helped because usually you're in some kind of support role and you are the help. Right. And so you're thinking, who do I have to go to? Leaders want to unblock you.

They're problem solvers typically. Right. That's why they're in the position they are in a typical workplace setting. So if you come to them with really specific ask, I've seen this go well, too. Where, it's okay, here's everything I have on my plate. Could you help me please? Prioritize it quickly and have an estimate of how long you think it'll take, especially if they're adding something else to your plate. Which one of these can I drop or can I delay for another week in order to accommodate this new ask?

Jessica Aebi:

Yes, because there are feelings of guilt, if you notice. One way to notice if you're an accommodator or people pleaser is how often do you feel guilty doing what's on your plate or not doing it fast enough or saying no.

Lisa Virtue:

And yeah, yeah, that's a good indicator.

Jessica Aebi:

It's a good one. Resentment, which you brought up a little while back, that's also a really good indicator. When you didn't, when you didn't, you knew deep down you really didn't want to do something, and then you said yes. Now you resent that other person, or you are beating yourself up for having done it. You know, I can see different versions.

Lisa Virtue:

Of this for sure. So I want to pivot a little bit in our conversation to more around this career clarity because we're doing really great tips for, like, tangible in the moment when you're at work. How can you move through this when it comes to you looking at your overall career? And you have these tendencies to kind of do what people tell you to. Right? Maybe you went to school because your parents told you to pursue something, or the career counselor said you'd be great at this one thing, and so you, okay, I'm going to go do that. And that's, again, a lot of these tendencies of, like, pleasing others or doing what someone else says, and then you get to this point in your career journey where you're going, I did everything everyone else told me to do, and now I don't even know what I want to do or where do I go next? Or what should I do about this? When people come to you about that, Jessica, where do you start?

Jessica Aebi:

Well, a lot of it is through inquiry. That's a big part of it. You know, I'm thinking about, I think it might help if I had a client interaction in mind. And because you're asking this question, we're having this conversation on this topic, and it's very, I would even say that it's very recent. Like, I had someone that I was working with who was struggling with this, like, somebody who ended up in a. In a role that she just, she knew that it was going to be the kind of thing where she might do for a couple of years just to have it on. Right. Just to have it on the, on the resume.

But what ended up happening is. So then she, she hired me to work with her just to kind of get ready just in case. I. Just in case. Because she knew that it wasn't going to be her. This wasn't going to be the place that she retired from, let's say. And then there was all kinds of restructuring that happened at the company, and then her position was eliminated, and then it just really accelerated the whole thing. It wasn't a hypothetical at that point.

It was, now, this is real. And so because that sort of realness occurred, she kept getting invitation after invitation to interview for this position, or a friend said, oh, you should do this. This would be really great for you, or you'd be so great at this job, you should serve on this board and that board and that board. And it became should.

Lisa Virtue:

Should, yes.

Jessica Aebi:

And it became like there were all these different. There were all the. This criteria that, that was in place that didn't necessarily resonate with her at the end of the day. So when we ended up, she sent me this email that was, am I taking on too much right now? Because she was telling me about all of the different opportunities she had and where they came from and where she was with them and the likelihood of it going anywhere. And it was, to me, it was a lot. It was probably five or six different things that were all converging at one time. I mean, imagine interviewing for five jobs in the same week. Wow, that's a lot.

Lisa Virtue:

That's a lot.

Jessica Aebi:

So I'm like, let's jump on a call, because I don't know. I mean, maybe for someone, having five opportunities in the hopper is perfect for them. Maybe that's just how they operate and they love it. But I could tell there was something going on there. And so we did. We got on a call, and I, through some inquiry, sort of realized, well, how do you know that you wouldn't want that contract job at Microsoft, some big, big tech company like that? Well, then she's telling me, it's because I don't want this and I don't want that. And then I said, why don't? What if you turned it around and you said what you did want? And then from there, she really started to articulate some bigger picture things. Autonomy, the ability to choose her team, what, you know, all of that.

And then, so that contract job that was not going to give her any of those things was automatically sloughing off. And then a few minutes later in the conversation, she said, you know, what I really want is to start my own practice. So not exactly a coaching practice, but something along those lines, but for big companies. And that was what was in her heart and in her vision of what she really wanted. But I don't even think that she had given herself the criteria yet at to determine or to even make a decision in any direction whatsoever. And so all of these different opportunities were coming through and then we realized, you know, we figured out what she actually really did want and then we had to work on all of the barriers that her mind was coming up with as to why she shouldn't do that. So I'm sure you recognize this.

Lisa Virtue:

Oh, I've got so many stories just this weekend. So similar.

Jessica Aebi:

Yeah, exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

Those limiting beliefs. And it's really fun when you talk to the clients.

Jessica Aebi:

It's really fun, too. It was, it was like we had an opportunity to speak to that voice a little bit in the conversation, which, which was really great. And so now, now she's got a plan and she's like, sketching things out and she has, like, she knows how to speak with that voice. And it's not just this irrational voice that's coming through. It's actually there for a reason. And so anyway, a few days after our conversation, she was sending me an update. She just sends me these updates every once in a while. I don't ask her for them, but she sends them to me.

I love that. And she said, you know, it's so funny, once I really started to figure out what I wanted, one of those opportunities, they got back to me to say that they put that position on. So it's not even so that, so, like, she put this out into the world and one of them just kind of like, sloughed off by itself. I thought that that was really funny.

Lisa Virtue:

The universe, we don't, we can't explain it. There's something that happens, isn't there? Especially when we get clear.

Jessica Aebi:

When you get clear, when you move with intention, when you have criteria for what success looks like. And what that, that isn't, I think that it creates something that you just can't really put your finger on. You don't know exactly why that happens, but I see it all the time.

Lisa Virtue:

Me too. Yeah, it's fascinating. So it's also think I'm thinking about what we were talking about earlier with pleasing others. It's, it's almost like turning the finger on yourself too. Like, okay, if you're saying yes to everyone else, why aren't you treating yourself the same way? Right. And I know there's a lot of layers that usually go into that psychologically too, but even just recognizing it when it's happening and saying, oh, this is, this is my time, this is about me now. And like your client probably little desperation starts creeping in. Right.

I'm thinking of a client I have right now who very similar, lots of opportunities, tons of networking. Like this client does more networking than I've seen anyone else do. Fantastic. Also sends me lots of updates, which I love. I don't have to respond to all of them, but it's just nice to kind of prime the conversation to know what's going on through the week. And this client has finally realized that, well, the reason they were worried about not taking the conversations and not doing all the networking is I'll miss out an opportunity. I said, well, what are you doing with those conversations? Well, I have all this follow up I need to do and I'm not getting to it. And I said, how's that working out? You know what I mean? Like, it's, well, it's no good if you can't actually do it, which is similar to what we were talking about with taking, saying yes to everything.

All of a sudden you're going to drop the ball on something. And so then that's a different problem. So you can't help other people or help yourself if you're not going to be able to have that room to breathe and have that time to actually get it done and follow through. So thinking about it in that mindset, I think can help people think, like, oh, yeah, if I were to take this on, actually not just the resentment would happen. Like, I physically won't be able to get it done. So actually now I'm not helping someone, I'm harming them or myself, because now it's actually the opposite. I'm over promising and under delivering.

Jessica Aebi:

Right, exactly. And sometimes that's where some of the guilt, those guilt feelings come through too. And I love that. I love what you're talking about because it, it sounds like, you know, for certain, for a lot of people, especially in this, in the topic that we're dealing with, that it requires some inner work. It really does require people to look inside and figure out what they actually want because they have been spending so much time, years dealing with the question of what other people want and making other people happy and doing all of that. But then it comes time to make decisions. Make like this example with this client. Now it came time to make a decision, and she didn't have a, like, she didn't have a barometer or some way to measure these opportunities.

Like she didn't know how to, how to say, like, is this something to say yes to or something to say no to? Well, what do I really want? And so I wouldn't put this client in the camp of a people. Like what I would consider that, you know, people pleaser. I mean, she's already well established in her career and an executive, and I couldn't, I didn't get the sense that, you know, she was being led around by other people. Right. But at the same time, she didn't have the criteria to know whether or not it was going to be something that she was going to do or not going to do because they all just seem like good opportunities on paper.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Jessica Aebi:

But that's something, that's good on paper doesn't necessarily mean it's what you want. It's not your intention, it's not your fulfillment. So you've got to do the inner work to figure out what will be fulfilling to you. What do you want your lifestyle to look like? How do you want to live? How do you want, like, what role does your career play in your life? Maybe you don't want that. Maybe you actually want to go back to school. Maybe you want to have kids. Maybe you want to go on a sabbatical for a year. You know, there's a lot of different choices to be made in your career.

It's not always what job you're going to take, but if you know how to, how to like what you, what you're saying yes to and what you're saying no to and what the criteria is to even get you there, I think that's a much more powerful place and it's a lot more intentional.

Lisa Virtue:

Right. First you got to understand, what are those filters that you're going to filter everything out and that, that power of talking it out, not just in your head. Right. It's amazing how much we just do in our heads all day. Isn't it amazing? And so just, like, being able to talk it out, write it out, get it out of your head onto some other platform or some. Something else, you can have someone else check you on, too, and check yourself on. Look at those thoughts. Externally is so key.

And I know we both do a lot of that work with our clients, and then I work with my clients on creating filters for jobs and that clarity piece, and so having kind of a rubric to just look at. But first you got to know, what does the rubric include? Because it is different for everyone.

Jessica Aebi:

Oh, yeah.

Lisa Virtue:

I can't say. Like, here's a standard template, guys. There's some very basics, right? Like minimum pay. There's some. Some things you can. Everyone's kind of goes into just knowing, and they can talk about quickly. But when it boils down to, okay, are you supporting someone else in your job or not? Are you a leader or not? Like, there's just so much nuance and uniqueness to us as human beings that you have to figure that out for yourself.

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely.

Lisa Virtue:

Like you're saying and do that inner work. And then once you have these filters, they still don't work flawlessly. There's intuition, and there's your gut check.

Jessica Aebi:

That's exactly what I was just going to say. You see, you're reading my mind. That's why I love to talk to you. I was going to say, like, being able to trust your emotions to listen to what's going on. I mean, that's a real weather vein for you, for us.

Lisa Virtue:

That's what makes us so unique as people, for sure.

Jessica Aebi:

Exactly. So if there's a. If there is an opportunity that comes your way and you just feel some dread or some feeling that just doesn't quite make you jump for joy and want to do it, listen to that. Maybe there is something there for you, that there's some data that's coming up. Why? Why is it?

Lisa Virtue:

Look into it.

Jessica Aebi:

Yeah, look into it. Don't just, like, stuff it down. This is what I used to do. I would get an emotional hit on something, and then I would say, no emotion. You have no place here to make this decision with my mind, you know, but at the same time, I think that. That our emotions are really that weather vein for ourselves, and if we don't listen to them, we can really get caught in a lot of traps.

Lisa Virtue:

Mm hmm. Oh, 100%. Oh, my gosh. We could go on and on about all that. I better wrap it up. Thank you so much, Jessica, for being here and having such insight. I love. Yeah, we're very much aligned in our coaching styles, I think, too, and, like, who we end up working with.

So it's really fun to be able to talk through all that. So if people are resonating with you, want to learn more about what you offer and also anything you have out there as far as tips, et cetera, how can they get ahold of you and find out?

Jessica Aebi:

Sure. Well, I'm active on LinkedIn, so LinkedIn is a really great way to get to find me or to message me. My user, my username or whatever you call it in the URL is just Jessica, Abby, Aebi, and my website is www.jabbicoaching.com, and there's a contact form there that you can fill out and then you can book a meeting with me.

Lisa Virtue:

Wonderful.

Jessica Aebi:

I offer just, you know, just for people to know. I offer a free consultation, but then I also have a low cost, what I call a clarity call, which is kind of like a first sample coaching session to see do I want to work with this person?

Lisa Virtue:

Is this.

Jessica Aebi:

Are we resonating? Can I, you know, can. Can this person help me? So that's what that is there for, too.

Lisa Virtue:

That's great. And I'm sure a lot of people find the reason you call it clarity is they'll find some clarity even just on that one call, won't they?

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely. I have not had one clarity call that did not result in clarity.

Lisa Virtue:

I love it. 100% success.

Jessica Aebi:

Exactly.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. I can also resonate with that, too. Some. Sometimes people, all they need is one conversation. It's so fascinating just to quickly get unblocked. Other people need a lot of time, and then there's people in the middle. But, yeah, it's just, I love that we can offer that to just hold the space for someone and get that out of your brain.

Jessica Aebi:

Absolutely. It's. Sometimes it's just the validation that people need. They know. They know what they want to do.

Lisa Virtue:

Yep, you're right.

Jessica Aebi:

Yep.

Lisa Virtue:

Awesome. Thank you again, Jessica, and we'll talk soon.

Jessica Aebi:

All right, thanks, Lisa. Take care of.