Lisa Virtue:

I'm excited to introduce my guest, Andrew. Welcome, Andrew. We are going to get into this hot topic about how to avoid a toxic work environment in your next job when you're interviewing and how to look out for signs for that. Before we get started, I just wanted to say briefly, Andrew and I know each other from similar coaching circles that we float in and out of and has been a pleasure to get to know Andrew over the last, I think, year now, we probably have known each other, and I love bringing on male advocates that can speak about gender from their perspective because I think we talk about it a lot, you know, women to women, men to men. But there's not a lot of crossover with that conversation. So I was really excited to welcome Andrew to have some more of that conversation. See his perspective. He's been working for a couple decades with women in the workforce, and as a dad and a husband, I would love to hear what his perspective is on what kind of challenges he's seen women have in the workforce, and then we'll get into how to avoid a toxic work environment.

So, Andrew, welcome.

Andrew Sloss:

Thank you, Lisa. I'm so excited to be here and to be able to be in your podcast. Thank you for the invitation.

Lisa Virtue:

Thank you for being here. So let's just start with how about you describe a little bit of your background and your career journey and how it's gotten you to where you are today.

Andrew Sloss:

Sure. Yes. Absolutely. Happy to do that. I mean, I started out, I went to law school. That's what I thought I was going to be when I grew up, was a litigator. That's what I had always dreamed of being as a kid and then as a younger adult in college. And then turns out I didn't really like the law too terribly much.

So after about seven years of practicing, I got into the consulting space where I did tax consulting, working for large organizations like ADP, Ernst and Young, Baker, Tilly, places like that. I've worked for some smaller organizations as well, but I did that for almost 20 years. And then my journey into coaching is, I don't know if it's necessarily unique, but I went through a period where I had gone through an unexpected layoff from a job that I had moved for. And then I went through the longest period of unemployment I ever had, which was 18 months. And I had just never had at that point in my career, I never had a hard time getting interviews, getting, you know, job offers. I always got attention to my resume, and I just went through a period where, like, I couldn't get a call. And I hired my own career coach after just being so frustrated. And that relationship and that decision changed my life and kind of put me on this trajectory to be a career coach myself.

And, you know, some of the impetus behind that was, you know, my own experience working at a toxic, several unfortunate toxic workplaces and going through, you know, layoffs where even though I was a high performer at my company, I was still in that list of individuals who was let go. And as you mentioned, as a husband and as a dad to younger children, I wanted to have a little bit more control over my career and my ability to provide for my family. So having such a positive and life changing experience with my own career coach, I thought, I like to help people, and I want to help people get out of toxic work environments because it's not a fun place to be. And so it just made sense to explore that as a potential career opportunity for me. And so far, it's been really great.

Lisa Virtue:

Okay, awesome. So tell me a little bit more about your experience working with women. I think you mentioned to me that it was probably 60% of your colleagues and co workers have been women over the years.

Andrew Sloss:

Yes. Yeah. I mean, sometimes it's even been higher than that. Sometimes it's been 80 or 90%, but, yeah, I think it's, you know, I think especially working for large organizations like EY, ADP, Baker, Tilly, like a very well rounded, diverse workforce. And I think also just from, you know, from the times that I was, I was there, like, a lot, you know, my bosses, a lot of times have been, have been, have been women. And I don't know if that's why the teams tend to be more women than men, but that's been my experience. And I've seen, unfortunately, I've seen some really terrible things happen in the workplace to some of my female colleagues, or at least I've heard about them. And certainly, as you run in career coaching circles and you talk to other coaches and other clients and prospects, whatever, you just hear some really awful stories.

And unfortunately, you know, at least in my experience, most of those stories tend to be happening to women. It certainly happens to men, don't get me wrong, but, and it definitely seems, to the degree that it happens, like the really terrible, awful, really bad stories seem to be. Again, my experience happen to women in the workplace, which I think is very unfortunate.

Lisa Virtue:

Can you give me example of something that maybe you saw as far as what was unique to your female colleagues that you didn't see, maybe their male counterparts go through?

Andrew Sloss:

I met, you know, I meant just, you know, almost right off the bat, like their abilities and skill set being discounted without proof. I mean, I just. That's probably the thing that I've seen. The most common is, you know, you get, you know, a man who has the same skill set, same education, same background, gets, you know, the benefit of the doubt. They assume that they know what they're doing, and they don't get lots of questions. Whereas a female colleague, exact same background, would walk in that same room and have to answer a whole bunch of questions as to, you know, why is she here? Does she know about this? Does she know about that? Does she understand these things? And the men don't get those same questions. And I was always like, why? You know, I'd sit in those meetings, and when I was younger, I couldn't really say much about it because I didn't, you know, who was I to say much? But when I got older, I was like, why are you asking these questions? Because be asking these questions to me so that, I mean, I see that a lot. Just you.

And I don't necessarily know where that, where that comes from. In corporate culture, in the job culture, obviously, I've seen the extreme cases where I've seen women be sexually harassed in the workplace or treated less than just because they're females. And sometimes it's been, especially in large corporations, where you're talking about people from multiple different cultural backgrounds. Sometimes it's been a cultural situation where the individual is coming from a culture where female participation in the workforce is not encouraged or is frowned upon. And so that tends to be the lens through which they view their female colleagues. But I meant, one of the things that I'm proud of is the times that I've stuck up for my female colleagues in the workplace and went up the chain to be like, hey, this isn't fair treatment. This individual is a high performer. She's doing a great work, and she's being.

Sometimes there's been emotional abuse or verbal abuse that was completely uncalled for. And so, you know, I consider myself an advocate that way in the workforce. And, you know, and some of my, some of the highest performing individuals and some of the people I've enjoyed working with the most have been. Have been women, because they are. They've just been, you know, great at their jobs and great to get along with and great with clients and all that sort of thing.

Lisa Virtue:

Thank you for sharing that. That's, you know, obviously, the work I do is to help empower women and take what they can control and imposter syndrome. We talk about a lot where people think it's just in. It must just be in my head. But you're also illustrating that there are sometimes things just out of our control. And so finding advocates like you and making sure that we're putting this message out there consistently, it's. It's not fixed. It's just not fixed.

Right. We still have these challenges.

Andrew Sloss:

Yeah, I meant just. I meant I just was talking with a client last week, and we've been working. We've been working together for a little while, and she's had her own experiences of, you know, different levels of toxicity in the workplace. And, you know, she walked into this. I guess it was. I don't know what kind of. It was kind of just like a summer, like a weekly catch up meeting with her, and she's the only. Only woman in this particular group.

And the minute she walked into the room, the men that were there were, like, trying to explain. Man explained to her about the sales process, and she just told them. She was very polite, was like, I don't need any of this. And she literally laid two huge contracts on the table, say, I just closed these this week. I don't need any of this explanation on how to do a sales call. And what happened? What could. What could the guys in the room do but nothing. And just shut up? And they were.

I mean, and she said they were obviously embarrassed, and that wasn't what she was trying to do. But her point was, you know, and that was one of the things that I worked with her on, was, like, you do have to stick up for yourself in the workplace, regardless of, you know, male, female, whatever. Like, you have to be your own advocate. And it's helpful to have an advocate that you can find at a workplace, but in the meantime, you have to advocate for yourself.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. 100% agree. I have worked in very male dominated industries myself, and unless I spoke up for myself or just had that courage in those meetings to speak up, they would just talk over me the whole time. Yeah.

Andrew Sloss:

It's so. It's terrible. I hate. I hate seeing it happen.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. Yeah. Well, that's amazing that you are able to share that openly with us. I really appreciate that. And just, again, to illustrate that sometimes it's not in your head and yet control what you can control. Get support where you can. And also, I'm not a big advocate for making things up. Right.

So making sure there's evidence of it.

Andrew Sloss:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue:

And it's not just, oh, it's because I'm a woman. I, you know, that's something that I also hear people say, and then I'll dig and find out. Okay. Tell me more about where the evidence is for that and for sure.

Andrew Sloss:

Yep.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And comparing yourself.

Andrew Sloss:

Sorry. Go ahead, Lisa.

Lisa Virtue:

No, go ahead, Andrew.

Andrew Sloss:

I was gonna say, like, again, like, if you. If it's the first time and you're walking the room and you think, oh, this is, you know, oh, this is because I'm a woman or this is because of my. Some of the, like, okay, well, just let's, you know, just take a step back. It's always bad to assume that's what's going on, so take a step back and just say, okay, well, let me, before I make that assumption, let me make sure that there isn't something else that was going on before I walked into the room that I wasn't aware of. Who knows what someone else is dealing with outside of the workplace that could be influencing their behavior inside the workplace. But certainly if there becomes a pattern of behavior and a pattern is more than one, of course, then maybe, okay, I've started to notice these things. Is it because I'm a woman and then just pay attention, like you said, is this only happening to me, or do I notice a pattern of behavior whenever it's me and other women in the room or things like that? But you're right. If you feel that's happening, you definitely have to have some sort of factual basis, and it can't be just based on your feelings.

Lisa Virtue:

Right. And something too I think we should mention and maybe talk about for a second, is that it's not just men that have these challenges when it comes to gender bias. Right. I've also seen it with women, to women. And I'm curious if you have a similar experience and perspective on that.

Andrew Sloss:

I probably have seen that less, but not because. But I wouldn't say that doesn't happen. I think it's more because I'm probably a guy. I'm a man. I don't see that as much, but I certainly have heard of it. And I think I've seen it happen with it's more. I think that the times I can think about it, where I've at least heard about it or had to work through it on the job is along racial lines or on cultural lines. But there's also, you know, but also there's, you know, I think also there's also.

You have to be careful because there can also be, like, generational lines that there's bridges across like, you know, I mean, I can think of one particular instance where there was a partner at one of the firms I worked at who just was, you know, if you want to say she was old school or whatever, like she had. She was experienced. You know, at that point, she'd probably been with a firm for close to 25 years, but she'd been a professional for well over 30. And so her. Her coming up through a firm like that as a woman was very. Was extremely difficult for her to get where she had gotten. And so she was very, very demanding, and she tended to be much more demanding towards the female coworkers. And in her mind, it wasn't because she was biased, and she might have been biased.

It was because in her mind, she was, like. Because she had to be tough going through that. She had to make them tough, even though their experiences were very different going through the firm. And so now she eventually kind of came around, realized she had to stop being that way. But I think there's also can be some of that situations where you're talking with some of the older workforce being like, I had to, like, fight and claw, and I had to get tough skin to get to where I am. And things have gotten better in the workforce, obviously, as we discussed, there's still plenty of room to grow. But, yeah, I mean, I definitely think you can see it, women to women as well as men to women.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, we all. We all have our own bias based on our own journey, don't we? And our own experience pattern, for sure. And that's what I've seen, too, is sometimes where women are not supportive or don't see that there's a bias going on. It's because maybe they came from a different background. Right. Or a different setting where they didn't ever have that situation. So it's good to talk about it. It's good for us to talk about it.

Yeah. And like you said, don't make assumptions. Make sure you're checking it. And then having a group outside of the workplace that you can talk to. Right. Is so important, because if all you're doing is being frustrated internally, now we get this toxicity, and you might be contributing to it without unconsciously, you know, you think you're helping, but it actually creates more of a toxic work environment for others. And then now you become the gossip. And so we do have to be mindful of that, don't we?

Andrew Sloss:

Yes, 100%. I mean, you know, it can be easy to fall into the trap of having a, you know, a work friend that you share your frustrations with. But you have to be very careful because you don't know who that, especially if you're starting a new job, you don't know who they know. You don't know if they're, I mean, if they're trustworthy. And so, I mean, I always, when I work with my clients, I'm always like, look, if you are. If you're experiencing a tough workplace or you just are having frustrations at work, like, you need an, you need an outlet that isn't someone at work to really be the focus of that conversation, whether it's, you know, a spouse or a mentor outside or a coach, someone who can, you know, that you can really vent to, but who will be able to give you, like, objective.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Andrew Sloss:

Objective advice, but also be able to challenge you. Like, hey, you know, I know you're saying this, but have you considered this? Have you considered that as maybe this is something that also could be happening? Because to your point, like, once you start, once you. Once you develop that familiarity in the office with someone and you just feel like you just unload them all the time, my experience has been that that doesn't usually end well for somebody.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, it's so true. I've actually been that person that started a chain of events, not meaning to, but where I left because of gender bias. And I just knew that if I stayed, I would say something or do something that would hurt my reputation or harm me because I'm so passionate about it. And when I did that, that's when I became a coach full time. So it was very much I left, and I said, you know what? And I gave feedback to the people that needed it, very direct, kept it to myself. But then other women came to me, and that was very interesting, especially after I left, because then they felt like, okay, now someone's outside the organization that understands based on what their impression was and what they were observing. And so they came to me and asked about my story and told me similar stories. And so then I had more evidence and more facts about what was going on when it came to this gender bias.

And it can be hard to pinpoint, but when you have a track, I tell my clients, too. When you have a track record, you have successes, you have all of the data and the facts that you are top performer, and then you're treated in a way like you're not. Okay, now we can start analyzing that, right? And so that's what happened to me. So leaving that toxic environment, the gender bias, etcetera, I just turned to my husband. And I said, okay, I'm not sure what I'm going to do next, but I know I'm going to help women in their careers, period. Because clearly, there's still a lot of problems with. And I was on an executive team that I thought we had solved it. We had 50% women.

Well, nine months after I left, every single one except for one, we're gone. So they all left on their own free will at that point.

Andrew Sloss:

Yeah. Unfortunately, you know, the creation of toxicity in the workplace isn't a. I meant, men get blamed a lot for it, but it's not anyone, male or female.

Lisa Virtue:

All genders work environment.

Andrew Sloss:

For sure.

Lisa Virtue:

Yep, for sure. And I had men reach out, too, and said, oh, I do. I don't think it was cool how they're treating women. And so. Absolutely. And then, so let's talk about toxics, because I know part of what we want to talk about is when you're going into a new job. So you and I both work a lot with people in that job transition, career transition, trying to get that next ideal role. What can people look out for when it comes to interviews and how they're learning about the company? What are some things that you advise people look at?

Andrew Sloss:

Yeah, I mean, obviously, I'm gonna do as much research as you can online about things you can find about the corporate culture, but you also nowadays, have to be careful because I meant anyone with a voice can be complaining about, you know, can be accusing a company of being toxic. Well, you know, but maybe the company isn't really toxic. So anything that you find online, like glassdoor or something like that, you definitely really need to take with more than just a grain of salt. Like, you really, you can't let that be. Let that form your primary opinion of a potential employer. It can be, again, it can be helpful and guiding, but you can't rely solely on that because they're just, you know, we're all human, and sometimes if we have a bad experience, we want, we take to the inner webs to complain, even if maybe some of what we were experiencing were because we weren't doing a good job. So that can only. That can only take you so far.

So really, what I would, you know, if you can reach out to people on, you know, I certainly, you know, if you find former people that worked there on LinkedIn that you're. That you're either connected with or, you know, people are connected with, you know, just reach out to them and just ask if they'd be willing to talk to you. About their experience. That was, you know, that was something I, that I did a lot when I was looking for jobs, especially after I experienced my first really bad, toxic workplace. And by doing that, it helped me stay clear of some places that probably would have been bad because some people were just honest and were like, I would not recommend you work there because this, this and this and so, but also, you have to be very careful to, like, really listen to why, if they, if they're telling you why it's not a good place to work, make sure that you're listening to why, why they're saying that as opposed, you know, because if they're saying, well, you know, they don't treat you fairly because of this or that, you might need to ask some tough questions around that, like, well, were you doing a good job at your job, fired because you weren't meeting expectations or whatever the case may be. But really the most important thing, and this is what I really advocate for my clients, is when you're going through the interview process, you have to be willing to ask some really tough questions. Now, maybe not at the phone screen, that might not be, that's definitely, probably not the place to ask the tough questions because you're hoping to get deeper into the interview process. What I like to say to Mike, you want to stay in the game.

If you're actively looking for a job, you want to stay in that interview process as long as possible. You don't want to scare them away because of some strong questions initially, but you definitely want to have those questions ready to go once you start talking to people, whether you're interviewing with your future supervisor or team members or someone else, that's a little bit higher. You want to be able to ask those tough questions to make sure that you feel like at least you've, you know, you're going to get some sort of response from them, and you have to kind of filter through your own lenses how trustworthy you feel their response is. But at the same time, at least you have to ask the question so you can feel comfortable. While I've asked as many questions as I can. Right. So you feel like when you get to that job offer, you can feel like, well, I've asked as many questions as I can, and I feel comfortable that as far as I can tell at this point that this is going to be a good place to work.

Lisa Virtue:

And probably changes for everyone the definition of toxic work environment. But in this context, how would you define that? What are we looking for?

Andrew Sloss:

I meant, you know, one of the questions I really always encourage my clients to ask is, you know, something, something similar to, you know, can you, can you tell me about a time when the company changed a policy based on employee feedback, something of that nature where you're kind of asking them, hey, if an employee has, I wouldn't say complain, but if employees provide feedback, constructive feedback of things that could be improved, what did the company do? And if the response is something like, well, we decided to throw pizza parties every once, Friday, every month. Like, I don't know, for me as a coach and even as a professional, be like, I want to go home at 05:00 I don't want to stay for a pizza party.

Lisa Virtue:

Exactly.

Andrew Sloss:

So I meant like that. I mean, I think asking questions like, you know, what is the, what is the company's philosophy on professional development at the firm or at the company? Do you support professional development? What tools, trainings are available to help me develop professionally? I mean, that's a good question to ask one, because it shows that you're already thinking of being there long term, like that you feel like you could have a home there. But then, too, you want to make sure that, you know, that what you, you want to, you want to grow professionally. So what tools do they have that will help you grow professionally? And if they don't have any, then you, then it raises questions like, okay, well, do you, you know, does the company believe in developing their people? And if they don't, that would be at least the yellow flag that maybe they don't really see employees as long term contributors at the company. So questions around, questions around that. Just, you know, again, maybe ask them a little bit, like, what is the onboard? You know, if I, if I, if I, if we go through this process and I accepted, you offered me the job and I accepted. Like, tell me a little bit. Like, what's the onboarding process like? And if they say, oh, yeah, you know, once you, the first day you hit the ground running and you're off.

All right, well, am I going to get any kind of, like, systems training? Because every, especially now with so many online tools and such a variety of online tools, it would be probably good to know, like, if you, you know, if you have a job, like if you're an attorney or an accountant, where you have to keep track of your time, are they going to teach you how to use their track time tracking system? And if there's not, like, I don't know that that would, that would concern me, that I'm going to just get thrown to the wolves so to speak. Another question I really like to ask, or have my clients ask, is, what is something that candidates report that is surprising when they first start at the job? And I think just as important as asking the questions and listening to the responses, especially if you're on Zoom, is watching the person who's answering the question and watching their eyes. And so you want to be paying attention to their answer, of course, but you also need to be watching their body language to see if you feel like they're confident in their answer. Are there, are they, like, are they kind of, like, are they looking up, trying to think of an answer? Do they not have an answer that's readily available? Does the answer sound can? Of course. But, like, you really want to be kind of really tuned into their body language, their facial expressions. You know, if you ask a tough question or a question that means something to you, I mean, it sounds, it sounds unprofessional to say this, but people will roll their eyes a lot more on the zoom or on the team's call than they will in person. And if someone rolls their eyes at your question, like, okay, that was, that's my. You just asked me to ask a question that I think is important, and you rolled your eyes at me.

So those things are very important, can be very telling in those situations. And also, one thing that, you know, another really good question, and I'll be quiet for more questions from you, Lisa. But the other question would be like, you know, especially if you're, if you're, if you're interviewing with someone who's been at the company, say, you know, at least five, five years, three years longer than that. Say, you know, tell me what's changed about the company since you've joined, you know, and see what they say. Is there, have there been lots of changes? Have there not been, you know, if there's lots of changes, doesn't mean bad. No changes also doesn't mean that's good. So you just have to kind of, you have to kind of figure it out.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. Those are wonderful questions to ask. So I also heard kind of, to summarize where a toxic environment is, one where the employees are not treated as long term investments or assets to the company, where. So you want to, you want to find a fit that does show value to that. You want to feel supported. Also, the way you ask your questions are similar to how interviewers ask us questions when we're the candidate, right. Is tell me about a time when, and I help my clients with this a lot, is prepping for those impactful questions and having like, three to five at the end of the interview where it's makes them give you a specific example.

Andrew Sloss:

Yes.

Lisa Virtue:

Yep. Yeah. Highly recommend that.

Andrew Sloss:

And if they don't have a specific example right off the top of their head, that's okay because, you know, you don't want them to make something up.

Lisa Virtue:

Right.

Andrew Sloss:

But you should hope, but you should hold them to it. Like, okay, you know, if they don't have something right, then, like, that should be a follow up conversation to get. To get that response. And does, you know, if that does require a certain level of boldness and it can be hard to be, you know, especially if you're in a situation where you're, you're, you're not currently working and you're looking for work, it can be hard to, like, step up and do that because you really just want, you kind of just really want the job, but you also don't want to find yourself right back in a bad work environment.

Lisa Virtue:

Right. Especially if you currently have a job that you're trying to pivot out of versus being unemployed. It can mean different things for sure, when you're going through that process. So a couple other takeaways, too, would be that you're feeling supported in the onboarding. It's really important also that, you know, I've seen, actually, I'll add this to what you've said, too, is a lot of really healthy work environments will have you do a work shadow or talk to peers during the process. And you can actually ask for that, too, if they haven't offered it, because maybe they're trying to get the interview process rolling quickly and just trying to, you know, recruiters, hrs working with all the teams, trying to just move the process along. So one really great thing to do if they haven't offered, that is to say, you know, are there two people on the team now or if it's a small team adjacent to the team, people that I'll be working with that I can have an informal coffee chat with.

Andrew Sloss:

Yep.

Lisa Virtue:

And especially when you're in the negotiation stage right before I. Before I respond, may I please do this? And at that point, they're trying to close you. So most likely they're going to be very amicable to that. Yeah.

Andrew Sloss:

Yep. You have. And that's, you know, you're in a high leverage situation at that point. If you're getting to that final, they've made an offer, or they tell you that they're going to make you an offer. I, you know, definitely do that, I mean, the other thing, too. And I've done a couple videos about this, but, like, you know, nowadays it's a little bit harder because so many, you know, so many hiring decisions will be just made. You know, you'll go through three or four Zoom interviews without being in person. But if you're, if you're interviewing for a job that is going to be, you know, at least partially on site, and you're, you know, and it's not going to cost the company money to fly you somewhere, it also might be worth it to say, hey, I'd love a chance just to come on site, see the office.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Andrew Sloss:

And then, because then I always tell my clients, like, that's a great time for you to do some espionage. Like, you go in there, you go to meet and that, this is the example I was used because I did this a long time ago, and I was interviewing for a large law firm in Minneapolis, but I said, hey, can I go use the, can I go just go use the restroom? And like, oh, yeah, sure. It's just down the hall. And they just let me go. Like, they didn't, they didn't, they didn't escort me or anything. So I pretended to get lost, walked around the floor for a little bit, and I just was, like, listening to conversations that were going on. And as, you know, a couple times as I walked by some office, like, everyone got really quiet, like, who's this guy? What is he doing here? And I was a little bit telling, but I mean, just, again, to be on site gives you an opportunity to maybe see some things and notice some things with your own eyes that you can't do. Not always possible to get on site these days, but if, if you feel comfortable asking for it and they extend that option, I would say 100%.

You should try to do that every time.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. And you also mentioned something that, I'll call it intuition. It's really like following your gut, too. There's going to be tells, and there's going to be small things, like the rolling of the eyes or something felt inauthentic, or you're just nothing jiving with who's going to be your supervisor, that hiring manager, which we know that's such a key relationship. You've got to be able to trust that person going into that relationship. So how open were you in those conversations? How informal did they feel? Like more of a conversation versus an interview. So there's a lot of those things that really, you can't necessarily put down as a data point, but you could create your own rating scale if you're comparing different companies and organizations. So my clients, I work with them on filters.

If they're in that situation, like, let's create some filters. What are the most important pieces of this job for you? And let's make sure that they're hitting those. And some of them could be, well, this is a preferred filter for me. I want to make sure that they're offering XYZ, but I can live without it. Right. And then there's the must haves. Like, if you. If you just.

Your gut is telling you something is off, maybe it's a gut check filter. There's something. Something there. But I do think that a lot of times, we rely too heavily on this data, tangibles, like, well, logically, it feels right. And maybe our family's like, well, yeah, good money. Logically, you should take it. But there's something gnawing at us.

Andrew Sloss:

Yep.

Lisa Virtue:

We've got to really listen to that, don't we?

Andrew Sloss:

Yeah. And I. You know, there was one particular experience that I had. It was probably. It probably ended up being the most toxic workplace I was in, but it was actually the job that I took after I'd gone through that long period of unemployment, after I'd hired my own coach. And throughout the whole interview process, you know, I just kept thinking, something just doesn't seem. Something's off between some of the people that I was in. Like, not between me and them, but amongst themselves, that there seemed to be some, like, I don't know if it was infighting or competition or they couldn't agree on things.

And I was like. I was like, this. Something is wrong about the situation. Unfortunately, we were kind of at a spot where, at least for me, financially, with my family, I was like, this is the only job I had offered to me in six months. And we were just getting that point. So I took it. But sure enough, like, a month after I took the job, the guy that was supposed to be my boss left. And from that time on, for the time I was left there, it was just a.

One of the worst places I've ever been.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah.

Andrew Sloss:

And so, you know.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah. And sometimes, like you said, sometimes we just. We've got to take. Make a move. We've got to get the paycheck, and we got to suffer through it a little bit. So, employing all the other strategies of, when you are in a toxic workplace, check out other podcast episodes, how to handle that. But hopefully, we're helping people prevent that as much as possible, too. For sure.

Um, there was one other thought I had around. When you're in that interview process, you know, some people very early on will say, well, I saw bad reviews of this company, so I don't think I should move forward with the interview. And I'm curious what your thoughts are. And I've got some thoughts, too, but when some, if your clients telling me, like, oh, this organization, I know they pay what my salary ranges that I need, and there's something maybe off, but I can't quite pinpoint it. So I think I'm going to withdraw. What would be your advice?

Andrew Sloss:

I would never, I would never withdraw. I mean, one, if nothing else, you continue, you continue to get practice at interviewing. And look, I mean, if. I mean, and I think, I think, I think we all tend to feel a lot of pressure if we get to that stage where someone offers us a job that we have to take it. Right? And I'm not sure where that comes from, but we don't, just, like, they don't have to offer you the job. You don't have to take the job if they offer it to you. And so, you know, again, if you have a really good, if you have a really good experience in the interview, but you've seen a couple of bad reviews, I meant your, your experience in the interview process should probably trump someone else's experience who you don't know, and you don't know the circumstances of their departure. The other thing, too, if you're talking about a large organization, you know, I mean, like Athenae, you know, ey, like, there was pockets of ey that were great places to work at and within, and there are other practices within ey that were horrible and terribly toxic.

And you would, if you read the reviews from people that were in that department, you'd think no one should ever work at that company. Or if you read the other reviews from the good place, they'd be like, oh, that's the, that's the best place ever to work. And so you can't really, you know, you might not end up in that department or you might not end up in that office. So you have to be a little more careful about the reviews. And I think also, too, like, you know, and I'm sure you talk about this with your client, but that whole fight or flight response, is that what's happening? Are you, are you just, is your, is your brain telling you, oh, no, I'm picking up a signal, I'm gonna flee. I mean, if you're in the middle of the, if you're in the middle of the process, they haven't offered you the job. Just stick with it. Cause maybe you'll find out that, you know, maybe you.

Maybe you got a bad interviewer, or maybe the person you did interview with that you kind of got that ick feeling from isn't someone you're going to have to ever interact with in your role. Right. Maybe that person doesn't happen too often, but maybe during the interview process, that person's up leaving the company and they're not there anymore. But you would never find that out. If you just decide, I don't like this, I'm going to withdraw.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, totally. I'm totally aligned on that. The more practice, the more offers, by the way, the more ego boost you get. And then your amygdala does start to calm down. Yeah. You're like, oh, that's okay. Well, I don't want that job. But, hey, I got an offer, and people I think are scared of that success because if I give it up, they won't be have another one.

So I think, yeah, your advice, I'm totally aligned on that. And I was just thinking, too, about even my own experience with the gender bias. A lot of it had to do with where the organization at the time was at and who was. Who were the players and even the board, which changes every year, and who was on that. And so I've seen that organization bring in great women since I don't know what's going on, because there's been a lot of turnover there. I don't know how it's going, but my experience is, I'm sure, very different than other women that even came after me. So exactly what you're saying. Those reviews and those stamps in time, if there's a pattern of them throughout time.

Okay, maybe that's a really good data point, but if it's like, well, this was my experience, but I think you should ask these questions and go talk to the people there now, um, I think anyone that is in a healthy state of mind and looking at it objectively would give that advice if you are talking to someone that used to work there. Right?

Andrew Sloss:

Yep, 100%.

Lisa Virtue:

One other question that I also thought would be really good, um, to add is around when you're asking about what success looks like in the role, you know, in six months from now, what will success look like? How will you know you hired the right person? You can tell a lot of what your expectations will be, too, in that question, can't you?

Andrew Sloss:

Yep. Also too. I mean, I'm trying to think back. I remember asking that question. This was a long. This was probably 15 years ago. I remember asking that question, interview. And the person I was interviewing with was going to be my boss and was a partner at the firm, and they couldn't give me an answer.

Like, like, they. Like, they were so flabbergast. They're not flabbergast. They were just so at such a loss for words. Like, I don't. Like, I think they literally understand. Well, I don't know what. I don't know what it would look like in a year if you're successful here.

Lisa Virtue:

Ooh, yeah. Big red flag.

Andrew Sloss:

Well, then. And you're the person that's going to determine if I'm being successful. I was like, okay. I meant I didn't. I did not get another interview after that one, so I didn't have to head. I'm like, this is not going to be a place for me if my boss doesn't know what it's going to take to be successful. Right, but you're right, that's. That's a really great question to ask because, you know, and that's also a really good question to ask in the sense of their response will be very telling because if they have a really good response, like, if they have a good response, you're going to know it's a good response.

If they have a really poor response, the poor response doesn't mean it's not a good place to work. It could just be that the person that you asked the question to was just not prepared to answer the question. So there has to be a little bit of grace. But again, I like to your point, like, we're trying to. We're going to kind of come with all these tallies as you're going through the interview process. Like, I get, like, if that happens a lot with different interviewers, then maybe that's an indication that it's not a great place to work. And so when you ask a question, whether it's that question or something else, and you feel like you didn't get a really great response, make a mental note to ask that question at the next interview with that. With that organization, to see, okay, well, this person didn't really give me a good answer.

Let me see if this next person is going to also struggle to answer that question, because then you're. Now you're seeing a pattern. Two people can't answer that question in this organization. Now you're getting a little bit more of a, you know, not hard, 100% convincing evidence, but you have some, like, there's something not quite adding up here. And again, that should propel you to ask more, more questions about what it's like to work there.

Lisa Virtue:

Absolutely. So that also leads me to think about when you're asking a question like that and the person doesn't have the answer, and they might say something like, well, you know what? We're going to build that out together. Maybe that's the answer. And now it becomes this question of, is it the right fit for you and your personality? Because it might be a great fit for someone who's like, yeah, I want to build that. I want to create my own metrics, and I've got clients that like that. And I've got clients on the other end of the spectrum that are like, no, no. Any very clear black and white goals or I will feel like it's toxic for me, me. So I think that's important to distinguish, too, that toxicity can be very different based on different people's personalities and the fit for you as an individual.

Andrew Sloss:

Well, Lisa, that actually brings up a good point, too, because if you are applying for a role where there are some sort of metrics, I mean, those are good ideas to get a handle on as you go through the interview process in the later stages, be like, how am I measured at this job? What does success look like for anyone in this role? Because you want to make sure you have an understanding of what that looks like going in. And if they can't, again, if they can't really identify what success looks like, you have to be comfortable with that ambiguity if you're going to take on the job.

Lisa Virtue:

Yeah, exactly. Yep. And some people are, some not.

Andrew Sloss:

Some people are.

Lisa Virtue:

Exactly, yep. I think less and less people nowadays are for sure amazing. Andrew, thank you so much for all your insights, the great questions to ask, things to look for. I think that all the listeners are going to have some really good, deep work to think about how to approach those interviews and looking at that next role for themselves, how can people get a hold of you?

Andrew Sloss:

Yeah. So you can. You can email me. Andrewlossconsulting also on LinkedIn, if you just look up, you know, my Andrew C. Sloss. Also on TikTok, Instagram at Slaus, underscore career coaching on all those platforms. You can find me there. Feel free to send me a connection on LinkedIn or follow me on there.

Send me a message, whatever you want to do. Happy to chat and answer questions with anyone that want, any of your listeners or whatever. And if anyone would be interested, I do have a free ebook on how to survive a toxic workplace. If you contact me on any of those platforms, I'm happy to send you a copy.

Lisa Virtue:

There you go. Now, we've covered both the interviews to get to a new job that's not toxic. And how do you survive when you are in a toxic workplace waiting for that new job?

Andrew Sloss:

Yep.

Lisa Virtue:

Beautiful. Thank you so much for your generosity today, Andrea. I really appreciate your time.

Andrew Sloss:

Yes, thanks, Lisa. I enjoyed being on here. Thanks so much.